What this question does lead to is this:

Would it be fraud/illegal/worth it to open a paypal business account, and bill your own credit card x amount of money for x miles, paying the 2.9% rate plus the per transaction rate?

I can't find anywhere in their terms and conditions, after briefly reading them, that would say you couldn't.

I would go with no to fraud, and no to illegal, unless it is against the T&C, although even then it wouldn't be illegal.

Wow! You would need to be pretty rich to have a credit card limit of 100,000$

Cheers

Searching Costco.com, I came across a $329,999 yellow diamond piece. Of course, it had to be purchased over the phone. I assume this would require a money transfer, and not a credit card purchase. No one will sell you something that expensive with a credit card.

I would assume that the same thing goes for anything over $100,000 (they will allow you to purchase a 99,999 diamond online, but not a $119,000).

If you have no legal expertise, why do you opine that the OP's potential actions would certainly be fraud -- a crime and a tort? In my view, it is highly likely that it is not fraud of either sort, and would be at most a breach of contract.

As I mentioned, though, I do think this conduct is morally dubious.

You might save the "of course"s for more certain issues. Fraud is a crime with federal and state variations. It is also a tort, subjecting those who commit it to civil liability. Either way, fraud is a legal term with certain requirements. I would be very surprised if what the OP is proposing satisfies those requirements for any federal or state definition of fraud.

That doesn't mean I approve of the OP's proposed conduct.

Would agree with others who've said you'd have a tough time getting a refund made to a different card.

I have have often had them credit my Amex card for refunds.Occassionally they have given me cash back for small $ transactions if I ask, but otherwise it goes back to the amex card.

A side comment to this, as a merchant who takes all major credit cards, I am not sure if I am legally or contractually required to only credit back to the form of card originally used, but as a practical matter we only credit back the exact same card. But can you guys believe as many as 2, or even 3 years ago, AMEX issued a T&C change that informed us that they would not longer refund discount fees w/ a refund or reversed charge ?

So, if I run an AMEX credit card for $1000 lets say...and I as the accepting merchant absorb the typical 3.00% discount, which I do ($30)....if the customer than changes their mind and returns product, and I refund the $1000 back to the creddit card...AMEX keeps the $30. How about this reprehensible practice ?

Anyone wonder why merchants don't like to accept AMEX products ?

Besides the extraordinarily-high discount fees compared to V and MC, AMEX's T&Cs are always onerous and one-sided.

Logically, this is why, from a reverse perspective, AMEX's affinity products *seem* to have much greater value than a given V and MC affinity product. If anyone ever studies the value of an AMEX-derived starpoint or an AMEX-derived HH point (earned at this ratio of 3:1 BTW), versus a visa or mc-derived affinity point or mile...no wonder AMEX inherently has the upper hand these days in terms of "VALUE", earned from such schemes as this one where they will not refund discount fees once they collect them, even if the charge is refunded.

Fraud by AMEX ? You be the judge.

Amen!

tried it.
well not exactly with bad intent.

Was at a Tiffany's this past weekend to return a piece of jewelry. Went back to return the goods. I didn't have my Amex that it was charged to. Since my wife is under my account, I thought they would credit her Amex(which she had). They said they needed the same card it was charged to. Maybe some mom and pop shops will let you do it but I doubt larger stores will.

Nothing illegal. Yes, bank 2 is out of $30, but bank 1 gained $30, that's why visa and MC rule require merchant to refund to the original card to prevent this type of problem. However, there is a loophole here since you can buy the item, pay off bank 1 and cancel the card, then return the item, since the original card no longer exist any more, the merchant have no choice but to refund to a different card.

I recall getting a refund to a different card at Lowe's, although it was a year or two ago. I wasn't trying to do anything on purpose, just had switched everyday cards as I recall and didn't have the original purchase card with me anymore. I actually mentioned this to the clerk, she said "Well, let's try it", and it went through fine. The amount was small, though. And as it was a bit of time ago, it's possible they've tightened things up in the meantime.

I think the biggest issue in trying this (apart from any moral issue) is that of an unconnected large refund. I have to think that would trigger some kind of alert somewhere.

The problem of getting a negative balance refunded is also true, although you can mitigate this by using a debit card for the refund. A signature-based transaction on a Visa/MC debit card should be the same as one on a credit card. That refund would go right into your bank account, from which you could pay the original charge.

Another problem would be with trying to do this on an ongoing basis. If you become a frequent returner, some stores will cut off your return privileges. In some cases, as I recall, such info can be shared with other stores. So you can't necessarily just go around returning forever with impunity.

In general, it's probably more trouble than it's worth, which is yet another reason why this practice isn't widespread.

As a former federal prosecutor for 6� years, I can confirm that this is correct.

See 18 U.S.C. � 1956 (money laundering) (requiring transaction to represent the proceeds of a specified unlawful activity).

the thing is working with amex.

you can pay for example a 10K item.
the points will be credited to your MR account after a 3days.

you can transfer them out and than cancel the item you bought.

you will get a - xxx amount of MR Points.

i dont know if amex lets you cancel your cards if you have a negative MR balance

dp

The answer to the above question is "it depends." I have encountered three types of returns:

1. Refund to original card: no card needed (receipt was scanned)
2. Refund to orginal card: orginal card required and refund receipt created
3. Refund to any card: no card needed if refund going to original card. Card needed if refund to different card.

I believe situation No. 1 is becoming more popular because if your spouse bought something and you returned it, you're stuck if you don't have your spouse's card.

Most responses here have addressed the legal/moral issues, but not the practical. Are you going to spend time every month finding large-dollar retailers that allow refunds to different cards?