Racial Profiling
 

Under normal circumstances I will not entertain any thoughts of racial profiling, but I had to ask myself what I would do if a man with the same skin tone and colour as my girlfriend got on a plane. It saddens me, it truly does. One bad apple should not spoil the cart, but I would not want that person near me. I am ashamed of myself, and it fills me with a loathing I find most distasteful, but I don't want my girlfriend, mother or any of my friends to hear I was killed in a terrorist attack. This post feels like acid on my very soul, as it goes against everything I believe in, but political correctness has no place at a time like this. Profiling will be with us for a while, although I am sure it will disappear in time. I hope and pray it does, but until that time, if you do not have a skin thick enough to last a flight, then drive, take a train, or walk. I am truly sorry, but after reading so many posts on various sites over the week, about how people were treated I have to point out that 6000+ people were denied only one thing. FREEDOM. The freedom to see their family, to see their friends and the freedom to enjoy life. More so the freedom to live and love. If you still have those things then the inconveniences you experience at the airport is of no significance. The dirty look means nothing other than someone in a physical proximity is scared, scared that they might die. The earth will continue to orbit the sun, and tomorrow, you can see, touch and speak to someone you love. Man makes a lot if not most of his mistakes out of fear. It is an emotion all of us succumb to. There is no way anyone can change the world overnight to stop this unjustified mistrust. I have one suggestion. Role with it. Be cooperative, present your ID with a smile, and above all please reach a little further into yourself and understand other peoples fear. No one has ever seen an aircrash in the vivid detail we saw last week. As you stand at the gate, remember that those around you tasked with running the plane, checking security and the passengers around you can remember with vivid detail that same image, that you are thinking of now. I pray that this era of profiling that we have entered will last but for a short time.

I am not famous for my sensitivities, but I hope that some of the people who read this will take stock and remember that freedom for me today meant 50 years ago meant the death of my grandfathers friends and his brother on the beaches in France, a man I never knew. A week ago, 6333+ people unwittingly gave their lives, as will others over the next few months and years to ensure that freedom is defended. Freedom is different things to different people. It's the right to live where you want, it's the right to love who you want, and the right to practice the religion you want. For others fighting Parkinson's, or motor neuron disease, its the freedom of choice as to when they die. We deny freedoms to people every day, or we saddle that freedom with safeguards, such as courts and other appointed public bodies to make sure that freedom is not abused, but we have a choice. I hope that recent events will not only promote the virtues of freedom, but teach us tolerance of others. Our colour, our beliefs and ultimately our differences. Ultimately we have to live with our conscience.

Sadly this post goes against my company policy so I will have to remove my email address. An affront to my freedom of speech?? No just my adherence to a policy designed to protect the company and the 18,000+ people who work here and the families they support - oh and the shareholders

[b]Whatever you do today, do something to make you smile.[b/]

A related thread from the OMNI forum:

Profiling is Racism?
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/002597.html

Personally disappointed to read this thread here on FT. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Not sure where here I read it, but seems that there have been confirmed instances where arabic appearing folks were asked to LEAVE planes before they took off. To the pax enormous embarrassment etc of course. Other pax and/or staff had apparently refused to fly with them on board.

Their 'offences', apart from their appearance? Often looking at their watch, or visiting the bathroom more than once etc.

It is a sorry day to hear stories like that. They passed all the security checks you or I did - probably twice as many to be frank. Check-in agents you can bet minutely scrutinized their ID and tickets and asked questions.

If one of us today went to a purser and demanded them to remove a clean, well dressed, well behaved person of negroid or asian or latino apparance etc as that person made us feel uncomfortable you would probably get arrested for breaking a racial discrimination law of some kind.

This is not Mississippi in 1951 surely? Haven't we moved on from there?

Unfortunately, the recent events seem to have driven many Americans towards thoughts or behavior previously unacceptable.

"A CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll taken a few days after the attacks showed that Americans were supporting special measures intended for those of Arab descent. In the survey, 58 percent backed more intensive security checks for Arabs, including those who are United States citizens, compared with other travelers; 49 percent favored special identification cards for such people, and 32 percent backed "special surveillance" for them."

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/23/na...chpv=past7days

Here we go again, will this turn into the same type of thread thats on the NW board

My post was not to create a hate thread, but to illistrate a thought I had. I will be doing my first flight tonight (Mon) since the WTC hijack, and it focused my mind in a way I have never considered.

My apologies for any offence caused, but this remains a valid issue, given present circumstances

Please see:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum35/HTML/002049.html

Again, we absolutely need to show some respect for everyone, IMHO, and not just simply the folks that we like and/or look like "us" and permit us to feel comfortable!

Racial profiling does not mean you have boot "scary" people off a flight. The former is debatable for airport security (e.g., asking a couple extra questions), whereas the latter is totally unacceptable. How much worse can NorthWORST get? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Having personally met Jongar and reading his prior posts, I have no doubt that this post came from aplace of wnhting to share thoughts and feelings that it's very hard to discuss openly. I echo some of his thoughts - not that I want different screening checks for arab peoples - but I do think my next flight will be very anxiety provoking . I think if there are swarthy people on the plane who take a long time in the lav I will tend to get quite nervous. e

dited for spelling

[This message has been edited by squeakr (edited 09-24-2001).]

You and Jongar make a good pair. Ever wonder what the "swarthy people" think if YOU go to the lavatory?

Do you feel the same when negro folks use the lavatory? Or Asians? Or Latinos?

"RACIAL" profiling has no place.

Racial profiling is what incompitent people do when they can't figure out what they should be looking for.

REAL profiling -- the kind that actually works -- looks at literally dozens of things.

Racial profiling is just plain wrong.

I am not honouring your swathy comment with a reaction. as of this morning 6457 people and thier families said your political correctness had no place. or they would have done if they werent laid out in an ice rink 3 deep at pier 12.

I'm afraid that Political Corectness died, inter alia, on 9-11-01. It absolutley disgusts me that some would place the possible offending of a small group over security for all. Its not ablout US white/black relations, its all about one small, identifiable group being responsible for over 7,000 deaths, countless maimed and crippled people, and over 120,000 jobs lost, not to mention the billions of dollars lost.

If it were up to me, I'd ban them all from travel via airlines unless they can prove a valid reason for travel or American citizenship with a permanent, verifiable US address. And before the chuckleheads start crying racist, its not. If pit-bulls maim a child, what do you do, assert the owners' absolute right to own a dog, or do you lock up and/or watch those animals? Same thing: the only way to 100% assure there's no possibility of a pit-bull attack is to watch them and not treat them as if they were poodles.

This is the stupidest analogy I have heard in a while, but I am not surprised that it came from se94583 (who competes with Sergio) for the silliest comments)!! Maybe we should ban all white males to fly since Tim McVeigh was that...?? Also, maybe we can add some fields in the personal profile tab to include race. That way we can make sure to delete any posts by 'foreigners' (like myself), so that they don't brainwash the rest of the readers...!!!

This feels more and more like a witch hunt. It's sad that you haven't learnt about the destructive qualities of hatred towards others!

from a post I saw on another board:

You are walking down a street in Israel on a warm summer's day, when you see a man wearing a heavy coat. His mid-section is bulging, and he looks like an Arab. You wonder if the man has explosives strapped to his chest. What do you do?

a. Nothing. You don't believe in racial profiling.
b. Run like the wind, and call the cops the moment you catch your breath.
The correct answer is b. If you answered a, you will be named humanitarian of the year, but the prize will be awarded posthumously. (This question is based on a real incident that occurred this year in Israel. In that case several racists did their own profiling and decided to call the cops. Unfortunately, the police didn't arrive in time to prevent the man from blowing himself up, taking about five civilians with him.)

Its nice to have pie-in-the sky principles but until you know of a better way to stop these animals....

Sigh....

This is just getting more and more depressing.

se94583, I wish it were that easy. Just lock them all up and have done with them...There are however, some problems with such an attitude.

First and foremost, all of us are human beings. A small minority (of us..and by this I mean all human beings) are extremists yes, but you find extremists in every race and every religion, from the likes of McVeigh, to the types that bomb clinics and going back to history to the Crusades and the Inquisition.

To isolate and punish 'them' puts you on the same level as the extremists you seek to isolate yourself from. You see, the terrorists look upon us, Americans as the enemy. Every man, woman and child. We are worthless to them and deserve what happens to us (I wish to underscore I'm trying to imagine what the terrorists are thinking I can't speak for them).

So please explain to me how you are different? Oh sure, you're not advocating extermination and I don't mean to imply you would ever even consider such a monstrous act as what occurred in New York, but you are stating treatment that you would never accept yourself because of the way someone looks or because of a place someone might at first glance be from.

Your attitude (in my admittedly not very humble opinion) is the first step towards the extremism we saw demonstrated in NY.

It's wrong, morally. It is also wrong (in our society) because it purports to punish before conviction or due process (to put it in legal terms). Innocence until proven guilty by a jury of our peers is a cornerstone of our SOCIETY and you would do away with it when we need it most. We must not do that, to ANY group. We have to be better than that, even when (or especially when) it is very very hard.

I wish to add a couple of more things. I was a resident of NYC until a couple of months ago. I used to work in 4 WTC with a cubicle overlooking the plaza where people were jumping to their death. My apartment was a 20 minute walk from the World Trade Center. My old building was just south of Houston in the closed area.

I spent two frantic days concerned about the welfare of my friends and was unable to get in touch with them. One is still (and may be forever unaccounted for).

I have been personally affected by this...monstrous event, although far, far less than some.

We need to appeal to our better selves in the face of such a tragedy. We need to feel and grieve, yes, but we need to remember that we are (and have to be) better than those that attack us. We will defend ourselves, yes, but we cannot become what we abhor, we cannot blindly condemn, attack, or hate.

I'm of Latin descent. I, however, have my moments of swarthiness when I don't shave for a couple of days or take a long weekend plane flight to Europe. Having been born and raised in the United States I consider myself as patriotic as anyone although my politics run just a touch left of center. I can't tell you how unnerving it was to see security guards do a double take or tense up as I walked through Dulles airport shortly after the attack (carrying a laptop case and backpack).

I can understand why they did, in a different time it might even have been reassuring, but I can't help but be unnerved and just a little uneasy.

Just my $.02.

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Travel light, travel cheap, travel often

Dude, it doesn't work that way. You're ignoring the context. Was it an Arab neighborhood or an almost completely Jewish one?

Let's put it in another context. If I'm walking around DC (or Brooklyn for that matter, or let's make it a bit more local to you, Milpitas or downtown San Jose) after dark and I see two or three guys on the corner, I'm going to be 'aware'. Whether they are black, Italian, or Latino. Just like I'll also be 'aware' if I'm walking around rural America and I come across a bunch of drunk good ol boys or in suburbia (like San Ramon) and I come across a bunch of partying frat boys from Hayward.

I don't walk around scared because I don't believe that is any way to live. I will be aware of anything out of the norm, however, because I love to travel and want to continue doing so for a very very very long time.


------------------
Travel light, travel cheap, travel often

Since political correctness is by the wayside according to se94583; I do not have one iota of a problem saying you are a one hundred percent certified racist PIG

Yeah, great idea se-whatever. What about the millions of South Asians who look Arab? What about the many Hispanics who look Arab? Well, the Japanese bombed us in 1942, I guess we should have never let any of them out of the internment camps since hey, a few of them attacked us, let's judge our fellow Americans because of that. Or follow Hitler's example and badge everyone based on their race. That'll solve everything, I'm sure.

I can't believe the day has come when I see more tolerance on a hockey bulletin board (where the day after the talk, it was 'kill all the Arabs' -- now its much more muted and a lot of those folks have understood the real enemy here...) than on Flyertalk.

The "racial" component of profiling is just one of the factors that is considered when you are "analyzed" by any countries security forces.

It has it's place and should not be removed for the sake of political correctness.

One of the guys at my employer is a Syrian national...and now he's a landed Canadian immigrant. He just returned on Canada 3000 from Germany three days ago and was grilled and searched intensively both in Germany and Calgary.

Did he have a problem with it ???

Not at all. You see...he doesn't want to die either.

Perhaps airlines should run two flights at parallel times and destinations...one flight with incredible security for those of us with common sense......and one without ANY security for those without any.

And you would choose which flight may I ask ??? Those of you who espouse PC'ness ???

Trojan Horse.....

It's time that countries and individuals stopped using the hammer of calling someone "racists" when they have no other logical argument and do not agree with what that party has said. May I suggest that you be the first to do so ?????

[This message has been edited by Carioca Canuck (edited 09-25-2001).]

It's time that countries and individuals stopped using the hammer of calling someone "racists" when they have no other logical argument and do not agree with what that party has said.

Exactly!

Its too easy to cry "racist" when there's no suitable counter-argument or solution to the problem at hand. Was Jessee Jackson a racist when he made that famous comment about being happy to see a white face following him in a dark alley? Or was he merely expressing a well-founded sense of watchfulness based on a certain reality? Its amazing that the "profiling" (official or unofficial) that has taken place since 9-11 has uncovered several groups of men engaging in suspicious behavior.

Pop-quiz:

Arab man, with foreign ID, rushes to check-in counter at BOS, apprehensive about missing flight. Bought one-way ticket over the net at the last minute. Can't fully understand the innane questions asked by counter agent because of language difficulty. She waves him on because she doesn't want him to miss his flight.

Should she:

a) "profile him" based on any number of "red flags" and potentially cause him to miss his flight and be embarassed or inconvenienced,

or

b) allow Mohammed Atta to board his flight, kill everyone aboard, and a significant number of New Yorkers as well.

Unfortunately, hindsight is 20-20. But then again, she was PC and cognizant of Atta's right not to be embarassed, which apparently is all some of you folks are concerned about.

[This message has been edited by se94583 (edited 09-25-2001).]

You are saying that just because he is Arab he should be stopped. So if you (assuming from your racist comments that you are white) did exactly the same, you would be waived through since you don't fit the racial profile of a bomber??? It's sad to see how all your arguments come back to the fact that Arabs did this bombing so all Arabs are bad.

ana.. did you even bother to read my posts, or do you automatically go into attack mode?

let's sum it up:

#airliners hijacked & blown up by "whites" (since you like to get your jabs against those of European descent) in the past 100 years: 0

#airliners hijacked & blown up by Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Scientologists, Mormans, Shintoists, etc. in the past 100 years: 0

# airliners hijacked & blown up by Islamic terrorists in the past 2 weeks: 4 (with promises and plans for more).

It has nothing to do with race, but everything with threat identification.Right now, we know where that threat is coming from and we shouldn't pretend otherwise just to make ourselves feel good.

See, e.g.,

http://www.nypress.com/14/39/news&columns/beans.cfm

[This message has been edited by se94583 (edited 09-25-2001).]

You may suggest anything you would like, however I'm still going to call a spade a spade and in this case RACIST PIG is the proper term in this particular for the poster being referred too.

Trojan Horse.....

It's time that countries and individuals stopped using the hammer of calling someone "racists" when they have no other logical argument and do not agree with what that party has said. May I suggest that you be the first to do so ?????

[This message has been edited by Carioca Canuck (edited 09-25-2001).][/B][/QUOTE]

se94583, perhaps you should stop flattering yourself that people are calling you a racist simply because they disagree with you. I suggest you take a good hard look at yourself and ponder for a moment whether you really are a racist. I don't think anyone else really has any doubt of the answer.

Furthermore, your arguments are fundamentally fatuous. Profiling for suspicious activity is not the same as profiling based solely on race. Since you suggest we ban all Arabs from flying, why don't you simultaneously suggest we ban all white people from renting Ryder trucks? Isn't that just threat recognition? Or are you not making that suggestion because you don't want to have YOUR liberties infringed upon? Terrorists can attack everything that makes this country great from the outside -- but it's people like you who are destroying this country from the inside.

It's rational discourse such as this which discredits anything you have to say on the matter. Just keep on making up names until bedtime or your mother calls...

About 7,000 people sure would have liked to have a "Racist Pig" on duty at BOS, EWR, or IAD on 9-11. But they can't speak up any longer...

Furthermore, se94583, the answers you self-righteously provide to your "how many airliners have been hijacked by whites etc." questions aren't even correct. For instance, the hijacking and subsequent crash of the PSA airliner in the late 1980s was carried out by one David Burke. Hmmm...doesn't sound too Arab to me.

And I am absolutely infuriated and disgusted that you would have the PRESUMPTION to assert that you speak for the victims of this tragedy and their families. I lost a colleague and a friend lost her husband. My friend was just telling me that her husband would have been appalled by the racism and jingoism going on in their name. So kindly, either speak for yourself or shut your trap. No one wants to hear it any more.

If one armed people had done these attacks or blind people, should we use that information to help us identify future similar attackers. I have seen people here critisize taking a closer look at a group of people that fit the profile of the attackers in one way. Would it not make sense to look at any and all groups which fit the profile of the attackers in order to try and prevent future attacks?

In a perfect world this would not be necessary as no one would drive planes with innocent people on them into buildings with innocent people in them. In the world we live in I think that for my safety, for the safety of my family, for the safety of my community and country we should look for charitoristics of the attackers and then profile passengers which meet credible charectoristics of the attackers.

Profiling has nothing to do the aspects of groups of people other than the aspects of the particular group that you are looking for. If we find individuals that meet substancial aspects of the attacker group then it is sure prudent to take a closer look at that person.

If I travel like, look like, act like, sing like, smell like, etc. the attacker group it may be wise to look me over a little closer because statistically I am more likely to be part of the attacker group.

Possibly some of the more high minded members of our forum may have some better security ideas to put forward, rather than simply name call to other who have ideas abeit imperfect, as is our world.

Please excuse my spelling as I am generally a very stupid person.

[This message has been edited by dallasflyer (edited 09-25-2001).]

se94583,

It almost seems a waste of time to discuss any intellectual issues with you. So let's just follow through with your thought process.

You seem to have forgotton that the Shintoists were the ones who propelled Japan to invade China and other Asian countries, committed such brutal atrocities in an Asian Holocaust that appalled even the Nazis, and also attacked Pearl Harbor. Towards the end of the war, the Japanese airmen became kamakazi fighters considered by their countrymen as heros making an ultimate sacrifice for their country.

Just because they did not have 757 or 767 in those days doesn't mean they wouldn't have done it.

And yet we don't racial profile the Japanese people. Although we erroneously interred the Japanese Americans, our government has issued formal apologies and retributions. We know it was wrong to inter the Japanese Americans, why do we think it's acceptable to racial profile, issue separate ID cards, etc. against the Arab Americans or Moslem Americans?

You are using the attack of WTC as the only measure to determine whether we conduct profiling on a specific race or ethnic group. Actually there have been other horrendous crimes committed against humanity. The only difference now is that this particular one was committed against the Americans and we saw it on live TV.

DNA mapping has proved without a doubt that we are all so genetically close that to condemn one particular race or ethnic group is to condemn ourselves as well. We must identify and hunt down the criminals amongst us, but it cannot be done by pure racial profiling.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChaseTheMiles:

You seem to have forgotton that the Shintoists ...Towards the end of the war, the Japanese airmen became kamakazi fighters considered by their countrymen as heros making an ultimate sacrifice for their country.

Not at all. Even the kamikazees targeted military installations and other legitimate targets of war. Although a surprise attack, same for Pearl Harbor. Its comparing apples with oranges: never before in US history have we faced an enemy who thinks nothing about killing innocents and actually avoids military targets in lieu of spreading terror.

And yet we don't racial profile the Japanese people. What were the internment camps?

During WWII, German-Americans were "profiled" (in the sense of the word we're using today) as well during WWII. But once again, the perceived threat was espionage or sabotage of military/industrial targets-- not slaughter of civilians.

apologies and retributions. I assume you mean "reparations", and much of that had to do with property seized during the war. Many Japanese-Americans lost their businesses, homes, and savings. They should have been compensated.

why do we think it's acceptable to racial profile, issue separate ID cards, etc. against the Arab Americans or Moslem Americans? Last poll says a significant number of Americans think otherwise. Bet you good money that if a nuclear attack ever happens on US soil, that percentage will grow geometrically.

What you're forgetting is that the seperate ID card idea (which will never happen IMHO)is for foreign nationals/aliens, who do not receive the full benefit of the Constitution to begin with. They are guests, and as such, can be sent packing.

You are using the attack of WTC as the only measure to determine whether we conduct profiling on a specific race or ethnic group. Incorrect. There is one particular group right now who is determined, organized, and funded to the extent that it possesses the ability to hurt us. Period. If the IRA suddenly developed a hard-on against the US and launched a similar terror attack, I'd EXPECT the Shamuses, Erins and Seans to be profiled as well.

And let's really call a spade a spade: after Mcveigh, mainstream America DENOUNCED him, and all who believed as he did. But where are the denouncements in the American muslim community? Just per forma weak condolences and more spirited denouncements of anti-muslim rage. At the day of rememberance, the Iman didn't even unquivocably denounce the terrorists.

Actually there have been other horrendous crimes committed against humanity. Long ago. We don't "profile" Germans anymore, because their animosity towards us and the evil ideology egging them on has dissapated. In addition, when in American history has a comprable event occurred, committed by sleeper agents hiding in our country?

but it cannot be done by pure racial profiling. Never said pure racial profiling. But its a factor, and its absurd to pretend otherwise. do you REALLY think that a group of Arab men travelling together should receive the same scrutiny as a group of Japanese businessmen?

The problem with this discussion is that the term "profiling" is a loaded term in the US: it invokes visions of black men driving Mercedes being pulled over for DWB, etc. As such, it has caused a "knee jerk" reaction from several on this board without actual consideration of the substance of what was being discussed, but then again, the same folks would probably protest the singing of "White Christmas" for its alleged racist overtones.

RIP fellow San Ramonian:

Thomas E. Burnett Jr., 38, of San Ramon, California, was a senior vice president and chief operating officer of Thoratec Corp., a medical research and development company, and the father of three. He made four calls to his wife, Deena, from the plane. Deena Burnett said that her husband told her that one passenger had been stabbed and that "a group of us are going to do something." He also told her that the people on board knew about the attack on the World Trade Center, apparently through other phone calls. He was the father to 5 year old twin girls and a three year old.



[This message has been edited by se94583 (edited 09-25-2001).]

se94584,

If you have something valid to say, say it. Don't take my sentences apart. The "...." that you took off contained valid points that contribute to a complete idea.

se94583, thanks for your posts. Valid points, IMHO. Political correctness has to take a back seat to national security, particulary when the country is at war.

Edited to add:

Also, thanks jongar for a very thoughtful post to kick off this thread.

[This message has been edited by cactuspete (edited 09-26-2001).]

Take a long hard look in the Mirror and what you'll see back is not something you will like very much unless you enjoy being a RACIST PIG, you know it , I know it, and i would imagine (yes its speculation on my part but I believe it enough to write it) many of the other posters here know it even if they don't say it

Thankyou cactus pete, senumber thing, F U C you. Dont hijack my considered post with your blind hatred. Appologies for offence caused by swearing, but subtlety seems irrelevenat this morning. Racial Profiling is here, those who fall under the profile need to accept that the additional security is for their saftey as well as anyone else. Its not racist , its freedom to travel securely

Jongar. I can now see why you admitted you removed your email address that links you to your company. I imagine they would be mightily impressed with your rational well argued sentiments here. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

And you accuse OTHERS here of "blind hatred"? Hmm.

I am tolerant of many things, but stupidity s not on of them. fortunatly, europeans are not bound my the PC straight jacket that so many americans are. My earlier comments were subject to jetlag having just stepped of the IAD-LHR redeye

SE94583, please call the Whitehouse, ask to speak to GWB and tell him how to identify this small group. It will save a lot of people a great deal of effort since you clearly have the answer. You have the opportunity to be a world-wide hero here. Don’t blow it.

[This message has been edited by bulkhead (edited 09-26-2001).]

OK. Lets see. I'm a big fan of British Airways and Airbus. The threat I identified was that it only involved Boeing. So lets ban them. Seems a bit harsh? What about Lockerbie? – Boeing again. I think I’m on to something here. Those boys in Seattle have a lot to answer for. Oh wait…they’re all US airlines. Ban them too. Oh, and Air France, as their Concorde crashed.

Am I being prejudiced? Tarring innocents with the same brush? Using a tragic event to push my own agenda? Hell I can’t tell, ‘cos my white pointy hat with the cut-out eye holes obscures my vision.




[This message has been edited by bulkhead (edited 09-26-2001).]

Just two comments. Mainstream Arab Muslims have completely and utterly denounced the attack just as much as anyone else. You just hear on the news the one or two groups/idiots who didn't.

Also, the problem is with some members of two groups -- Arab Americans and those of the Islamic faith. There are over 7 million Arab Americans and probably 20+ million more who look Arab American in the US. That is not a small group. And those of Islamic faith? Many, many more.

And there's no way to tell a citizen from a non-citizen by the way. Domestic air travel does not require a passport.

Please identify the "blind hatred." Everything I posted has been rationally related to security concerns and logically presented. I see no other logical solution that would work with a considerable degree of success. The only "blind hatred" I see is from folks like trojan and possibly you who scream insults when you encounter someone who does not share your same Polyana-esque worldview.

You seem to forget that there is a considerable force out there that:

does not want to convert you
does not want to debate you
does not care if you understand their point of view
does not think twice about using our free society and innate trust against us

They simply want to kill you and everyone you hold dear. If rousting these bad folks out means offending (in a very minimal way) a particular law-abiding segment of our society, so be it. Remember, the resultant safety help all of us regardless of ethnicity or citizenship in the air and on the ground. How naive can you be?

Right now, you are either for doing what is necessary to capture or kill the terrorists, or you are for not doing this. If you are for not doing this, you are in essense supporting the next attack. You are saying, in fact: I believe that it is better to allow more Americans -- perhaps a great many more -- to be murdered than to capture or kill the murderers or to make others (who resemble or otherwise appeaar to be like the terrorists in one way or another) feel uncomfortable for 5-10 minutes in an airport.



[This message has been edited by se94583 (edited 09-26-2001).]