none of the original posts referred to banning people - only the level of discomfort some people now feel around others of a different race/dress etc. I'm not proud of how I feel, but I think it's good to talk about these issues and feelings and try and diffuse them. I certainly woudl not want to ban people from planes becasse they look a certain way - but even here ont he ground, people are jumpy if the bottled water guy is different form the person who' s been doing deliveries for months, or if someone is hanging around our lobby looking nervous. (We've had 2 bomb threats since the 11th). I'm not saying it's good, just that it is happening and I think we should talk about dealing with it.

Being 1/16th Ubangi, a western tribe in Africa, I am not offended by Arabs being racially profiled. I have been profiled with me being a High Yellow (I am not an Octaroon nor a Quadroon- 1/8th and 1/4 black respectively). These Arabs came to my nation and enslaved my people and sold my people to slave traders who sent my people to America. And I'll be ****ed if they are coming after us again!

Couldn't have said it better myself. And I say we take everyone who looks like Timothy McVeigh and throw them into the internment camps.

Look, guys, we're all human. Of course we will feel a little more nervous if we are on a plane with someone who is Arabic.

But we should do our ****dest to beat that prejudice down. Virtually all Arabs deplore the acts of September 11. And as painful as it was for us, imagine how painful it is for them. They are the ones who have to look at their fellow Arabs slaughtering innocents.

As for the profiling, well, I would expect that Arabs will get asked more questions, and they will get scanned with the wand even if they pass through the metal detectors without a problem. But folks, that's not a violation of civil rights -- it's an inconvenience. If you take them away, arrest them, and ask them questions without a lawyer present for hours, that's different.

So, basically, folks, we need to try to reach out to the AMERICANS who are Arabic rather than getting them tossed off our flights.

I just flew SIN-DXB-IST on SQ. Guess what the majority of the passengers looked like? I was in the minority.

I'm happy to say that they treated me well and didn't ask me to leave the plane since I might have wanted to blow up all my enemies!

BTW, I arrived safely!

Bon Voyage to all and Peace!

-----

[This message has been edited by Canista (edited 09-27-2001).]

Jongar, though I don't entirely agree with your original post, I do appreciate the thoughtful spirit of the way you posted it. Quite a contrast to some of the stuff I am hearing on talk radio. (And now, I will move into a little more sarcastic mode.)

It occurs to me that since we are discussing racial profiling, maybe we should go back to the old-time racial categories. If we do that, surprisingly we see the real connection. Both the Okla City event and the WTC event were carried out by Caucasian males. At last, we see the connection. All Caucasian males are suspect. There is such an obvious connection...how could we have missed it. We were thinking of skin color...how dumb, McVeigh and the Suicide pilots don't appear to have the same skin color. We were thinking of citizenship...no connection there. But when you factor in "gender" and "broad racial category," it is clear. There is a huge Caucasian Male plot. In fact, I see it now, these talk shows hosted by Caucasian Males deriding the Arab Americans are part of the subterfuge. Designed to confuse us. Designed to throw us off the track. Don't you see?

It really is extremely helpful to use these categories to help solve the puzzle.

[This message has been edited by Watchful (edited 09-27-2001).]

As someone who can look Arab (if you're a typical American who can't tell anyone apart http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif) I know I've spent much more time at airport security in the past. It doesn't bother me, everyone's been polite and no one's been judgemental. I don't think anyone, Arabs or others, are upset if they are more closely scrutinized. However, in this land, we're innocent till proven guilty and also should be treated with respect. Being thrown off the plane AFTER you've been checked out and cleared by security is just plain discrimination and unacceptable in the land of the free and home of the brave.

I agree, and it just gives Bin Laden more stuff for his recruitment efforts -- he can point to it as proof that Americans hate Arabs and that's why he wants his recruits to kill Americans.

Consider: The 9/11 terrorists were not "racially" profiled and were checked and cleared by security. Call me a racist if you wish, but given the events of 9/11 and bin Laden's threats/instructions, isn't it much more likely than not that the next terrorist hijacking will be carried out by persons of Arab descent?

I shall not call you a racist but I would like to know what you propose.

The next terrorist attack may not necessarily be by means of an aircraft - it could be any number of other means.

Would you propose that we ban anyone of Arab descent from flying? Maybe forbid anyone of Arab descent from having a licence for firearms? Let's go another step further, how about forbidding anyone of Arab descent from holding a position within any company or organistaion where they might be privy to sensitive information?

I reiterate that I'm not calling you a racist because I understand your concerns, but this is not the way forward. Anyone who thinks it is, has already succumbed to the aims of what the terrorists went out to accomplish.

To play it safe, all we have to do is get rid of all the Arabs, then we'll be safer in the US. Also lock up the crazies like McVeigh; let's just bomb Northern Idaho, parts of Montana; in fact, most of the mid west. Those Southerners are also pretty dangerous iwth their fanatical fundmentalism. Oh, heck let's put them in an interment camp. And through those Yankees in, too................

As we see, it's quite difficult. Where do we stop? Essentially we're very vulnerable in this large, free country, as we cannot control everyone's actions.

Let's hope/pray for Peace while still being vigilant.

Perhaps this is the solution:

http://graphics.theonion.com/pics_37...graph_3734.jpg

[This message has been edited by se94583 (edited 09-27-2001).]

I think the latest article by Joe Brancatelli sums up my feelings on this issue, I'm much afraid that I see several of the "cowards and traitors" he refers to posting in this very thread...

http://www.zyworld.com/brancatelli/branc.htm

Cactuspete, most of the people thrown off planes weren't even Arabic. They were Pakistani, Indian, Sikh, or any of the other 'collateral damage' from the collective bigotry.

Some were frequent flyers, some were not. In either case the only thing that stood in the way was bigotry. We do not accept such behaviour on the ground, and just because it's an airplane doesn't mean we have to accept such behavior in the air.

Did we ban all people who look like McVeigh (ie, Caucasian) from renting trucks? After all, one guy did blow up the Oklahoma City building, so to be safe, we shouldn't let any of them rent trucks. That way the country will be more safe.

Of course there's no answer to that (I pose that argument every time and never hear an answer) ...

BTW, On the initial topic of this post 'racial profiling' even as someone who's been profiled in the past, I don't mind being racially profiled. I expect to , and have been, examined doubly closely through security and customs. Doesn't bother me as long as its polite and doesnt presume guilt. I will not accept pilots taking the law into their own hands.. and I hope they and their airlines pay dearly for their judgement mistakes.

I'm one of the business traveller's that Joe talks about. I'm a US Citizen. I'm not Arab. I'm not Islamic. But I'm afraid to fly because people who look like me (who are not Arab or Islamic) are being discriminated against, and so far nothing has been done about it.

This may change soon, however. Utah Attorney General threatens to sue Northwest over three Arabs thrown off flight:

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010927/n27285299_1.html
http://attygen.state.ut.us/Attorney%...0Sept%2028.htm

Quite simply, I am suggesting that, at this point in time, it is reasonable to include race as one of many factors in profiling potential terrorist threats. Yes, it may impinge ever so slightly on the rights of a few individuals, but the greater concern of national safety and stability should prevail. The country is at war.

I am not proposing that we go to any of the extremes that you suggest. I am just asking that everyone use a little common sense. Again, I'll ask the same question: Given the events of 9/11 and bin Laden's threats/instructions, isn't it much more likely than not that the next terrorist hijacking/bombing/attack/mass murder of civilians will be carried out by persons of Arab descent?

I believe that the isue is not as clear as the anti-profiling posters on these boards make it out to be. What do you propose?

Edited to add:

There are so many similar threads on FT that I sometimes can't keep track of the arguments and/or issues raised in any particular thread. My comments here and elsewhere were directed at "racial profiling" in general. I concede that the instances of flight crew removing persons based solely on race or skin color, after those persons have cleared security, are inappropriate. In the aftermath and hysteria of the 9/11 attacks, perhaps it was understandable (but not excusable). And if the flight crew doesn't trust security, then surely the passengers had the right to be concerned.



[This message has been edited by cactuspete (edited 09-28-2001).]

Perhaps. But there are still holes in the security...just as the holes are exploited in the last horrible incident, that's what they would do again (IF the same group of terrorists plan to hijack another plane.)

Consider this: it's easy to steal an identity; some of the suicide terrorists spoke very good english; they could easily lighten their hair, skin and eyes to pass as Americans. Profiling by appearance will do nothing to stop that threat...

Negro??? Sendoisan and all other who use the term negro, Negro went out with the 1950's. Today we describe decendants of slaves as African-Americans.

Jongar, while I do not I agree with your behavior, I do respect your honesty. Try not to allow the terrorist to change who you are as a person or your behavior. We will get through this horrible time in our nation, as we did with the Civil War, Vietnam, the death of JFK and all of the other tradegies in our nation's history. I firmly believe we will come through this time of crisis and become a more perfect union. Have no fear.

Of course they have the right to be concerned. Furthermore, they have the right to disembark due to that concern. Nobody forced them to do anything they didn't want to do. It's just that simple.

I probably should let this die, but ... if the flight crew (whether or not justifiably) identifies a passenger as a security risk, the other passengers should disembark?

One American Muslim's opinion: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...ent%2Dopinions .

hey cactus you beat me to posting that article in here. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I hope everyone reads that, it sums up the issue here very well.

Anyone remember the name of the Supreme court justice who said "The constitution is not a suicide pact"?

I think you need to take a look at the flight crew's capacity to make these judgements. When the passengers have already passed through greatly increased security, what is the justification for their conclusions?

Naturally, if there is a justifiable risk, then the passenger should be removed. If, however, they unjustifiably remove a passenger, then that's fine as well. It should be noted though that, if the aircrew have unjustifiably removed a passenger, they should then face disciplinary action for their folly.

If the aircrew are incapable of making that judgement, then they should either be made capable or refrain from making ill conceived judegements.

Things will start to settle down once the airlines and aircrews are made accountable for their actions.

I know the law states that pilots have full and unrefutable ability to throw people off planes. I did not realize this extends to flight attendants; and I don't think it does. I guess it may be true in reality, because if the FA refuses to fly, then the flight is normally grounded, and a pilot might rather inconvenience one or two pax rather than a whole plane load.

In any case, I don't think anyone is saying that authority should be removed from pilots. They should be, and they will be, held accoutnable for their actions. They should remember there are thousands of qualified pilots just waiting to take their job in the wings...

While racial profiling may help, it wouldn't work all the time. Take a look at this picture:

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com...ial_lil103.jpg

That is the picture of a suspected terrorist with links to Bin Laden. Now it's well known that the 'terrorist guide' said for individuals to be clean-shaven. If this guy shaved, could you easily tell he was a terrorist?

Rest of the story on this guy:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?p=n...amp=1001924779

Latest Supreme Court news re profiling:

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/2001...ofiling_5.html

the supreme court turns down an overwhelming majority of cases it is asked to hear. Something like 95%? They only can hear so many...

True, but if they want to make a statement, they would pick it up. Their unwillingness to take up this issue (to either prohibit, or to define what is racial profiling and what are the acceptaqble limits of such), particularly in light of current events, is salient.


Someone asked for this earlier:

"[W]hile the Constitution protects against invasions of individual rights, it is not a suicide pact." Kennedy v. Mendoza-Martinez, 372 U.S. 144, 160, 83 S.Ct. 554, 563, 9 L.Ed.2d 644 (1963).

More pax hassled again!

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum12/HTML/000371.html

61% of polled Arabs living here feel profiling is justified as they want to be safe too:

http://www.freep.com/news/nw/terror2...1_20011001.htm

That is, until one of their own family members is harassed.

You've been posting this link everywhere as some sort of support or justification for racial profiling. Just as we've learned from any poll, any poll result depends on how the question was phrased and asked.

Racial Profiling at the Airport --
Discrimination we're afraid to be against.

http://slate.msn.com/Readme/01-09-28/Readme.asp

[This message has been edited by cactuspete (edited 10-01-2001).]

There is a difference between racial profiling and harrassment. Racial profiling just makes one race more susceptible to be 'checked' than another. I am not surprised that Arabs in this survey, and Americans overall (as they are AMERICANS) are ok with this, because just like you and me, Arabs don't want to get blown up by a terrorist.

Harrassment, in the form of poor treatment by security and airline officials, is a whole different thing.

Personally, I shudder when I read the article posted elsewhere about White separatist groups celebrating the Sept 11 attacks. I was not too surprised; after all , Timothy McVeigh blew up Oklahoma City because it was a symbol of the government -- he was ok with innocents dying.

These terrorists are alive and well, and now they know that they can use a plane as a guided missile. I would not be surprised if at least one of these groups tries a similar attack, especially knowing that the public would automatically blame an Arab on the flight, and especially if racial profiling means they would walk through security unaccosted.

Personally, rather than talk about the morality and legality of racial profiling, I'd rather see discussions about its effectiveness. Succintly, evil people come in all shapes and colors. I'd rather see more random checks (as a percentage of pax) to catch the Arab terrorist, the White terrorists, the IRA terrorist, the WHATEVER terrorists.

I completely agree with pitflyer.

It is impossible to conduct the types of investigations we need to conduct without racial profiling. Profiling is necessary.

As a gay man, I have been unable to give blood to the Red Cross since 1984. I am not HIV positive. However, when the blood supply was becoming infected in the 80's, it was WISE and JUSTIFIED to refuse donations from gay men. I didn't like it either. I don't know why, in light of today's technology, that this still exists, but it DOES. I have NO WAY of proving to a Red Cross screener that I'm not HIV positive, and have no NEED to deny who I am. So, I'm profiled, and I'm denied.

Harrassment is another story. If I'm called mean names by people, that's not profiling. But when I'm told "NO" or more questions are asked about my background, I don't object, I accept.

The reality of the world today dictates some things that may not be politically correct. But political correctness doesn't always save lives.

A good thread about a flight with 5 "Middle Eastern" mean onboard.

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...ML/006189.html

shinbal....

Very well said.

To every one else.....

It seems that none of you who are against racial profiling are willing to state which kind of airline that you'd like to fly on as per my question in my previous post. That airline with incredible security would employ profiling as well as other measures.

Moderators, I don't intend to insult any of you here with my next statement so please accept my apologies if any of you are......I've not addressed it to anyone in particular either as I do not know any of you well enough to make this judgement on you personally, it's an observation, nothing more, but the left wing, liberal "political correctness" movement IMO is full of nothing more than morally bankrupt hypocrites.



[This message has been edited by Carioca Canuck (edited 10-03-2001).]

Moderators, I don't intend to insult any of you here with my next statement so please accept my apologies if any of you are......I've not addressed it to anyone in particular either as I do not know any of you well enough to make this judgement on you personally, it's an observation, nothing more, but the left wing, liberal "political correctness" movement IMO is full of nothing more than morally bankrupt hypocrites.

[This message has been edited by Carioca Canuck (edited 10-03-2001).][/B][/QUOTE]

Now, just what we were all hoping for a well balanced, unbiaised, morally superior and very accurate commentary on profiling and leftists.
Anyone against profiling must be leftist.

I am glad you dont know me, since you sure as hell didnt me any reason to WANT to know you.
Mike



[This message has been edited by MIKESILV (edited 10-04-2001).]

Terror attacks revive concerns about 'profiling' airline passengers

http://www.nj.com/newsflash/index.ss...flash-national