Value of Award tickets
May 1, 2001 | 7:58 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Montreal / Detroit / Miami
Posts: 745
Value of Award tickets
This post has appeared elsewhere, but I'm reposting it so that we can get some others opinions
The Official Frequent Flyer Guidebook, 7 ed.
Randy, great publication. My favorite part is the Comparison at-a-glance section, especially the Elite-level comparison, upgrade and threshold bonus charts. Very handy for quick reference. Worth the money.
I would however like to bring up a point of discussion.
It's concerning The Taxation of Frequent Flyer Miles section, under the section Valuation (page 90).
I agree with the statement:
"Clearly, an award has less value than a full-fare coach ticket."
I do however disagree with the statement that immediately follows it.
"In fact, even the lowest discount fares exceed the fair market value of award travel."
I have redeemed awards on several airlines over the years and I always place a higher value on an award ticket then a LOWEST DISCOUNT fare. That's because an award ticket is changeable, within the same award level, in terms of dates, times, flights, etc;
My plans are as steady as the wind
When I book a lowest discounted fare, I'm often (very often) toasted. I can't tell you how many 100$ "fines" I've paid, for changing ticket times/dates. (That's the price you pay when you pay your own travel expenses and can't always justify a J class fare)
However, an award level ticket is constantly changeable (for up to a year usually) and I find the convenience worth it's wait in gold. As an example, because of unsteady commitments, I once carried a YUL-DTW award for three months constantly changing the dates form one week to the next.
Personally, I value airline miles/points at 0.02 (even though I usually receive values of 0.033). So, while a 500$ flight is equivalent to 25K miles, [benefits equaling the costs (25,000 x 0.02)], I would still view the 25K as more valuable.
As an example: Let's say I wanted to eventually visit Friend A who lives in a city where the airfare to get there costs a fixed 500$ (non-refundable) or 25K miles but that I had no FF miles in any account. Let's also say that a bonus offer came up where I could fly to a totally different city (City X) for 500$ AND earn 25K in FF miles. I would fly to City X for 500$, earn the 25K, and then use the 25K to visit Friend A. Why? Because now, that airplane ticket to visit Friend A is flexible and changeable (and even a re-deposit of points would cost 50$ rather than the 100$ charge for changing discounted tickets). So, if either Friend A or I, for whatever reason, decide that next week would be better . . . no problem if I'm holding an award ticket.
Maybe the original statement "even the lowest discount fares exceed the fair market value of award travel," which I disagree with had a purpose which came from a different angle, and I have misunderstood. In that case I'd be interested in others points and opinions.
------------------
Got points ? Got smiles !
The Official Frequent Flyer Guidebook, 7 ed.
Randy, great publication. My favorite part is the Comparison at-a-glance section, especially the Elite-level comparison, upgrade and threshold bonus charts. Very handy for quick reference. Worth the money.
I would however like to bring up a point of discussion.
It's concerning The Taxation of Frequent Flyer Miles section, under the section Valuation (page 90).
I agree with the statement:
"Clearly, an award has less value than a full-fare coach ticket."
I do however disagree with the statement that immediately follows it.
"In fact, even the lowest discount fares exceed the fair market value of award travel."
I have redeemed awards on several airlines over the years and I always place a higher value on an award ticket then a LOWEST DISCOUNT fare. That's because an award ticket is changeable, within the same award level, in terms of dates, times, flights, etc;
My plans are as steady as the wind
When I book a lowest discounted fare, I'm often (very often) toasted. I can't tell you how many 100$ "fines" I've paid, for changing ticket times/dates. (That's the price you pay when you pay your own travel expenses and can't always justify a J class fare)
However, an award level ticket is constantly changeable (for up to a year usually) and I find the convenience worth it's wait in gold. As an example, because of unsteady commitments, I once carried a YUL-DTW award for three months constantly changing the dates form one week to the next.
Personally, I value airline miles/points at 0.02 (even though I usually receive values of 0.033). So, while a 500$ flight is equivalent to 25K miles, [benefits equaling the costs (25,000 x 0.02)], I would still view the 25K as more valuable.
As an example: Let's say I wanted to eventually visit Friend A who lives in a city where the airfare to get there costs a fixed 500$ (non-refundable) or 25K miles but that I had no FF miles in any account. Let's also say that a bonus offer came up where I could fly to a totally different city (City X) for 500$ AND earn 25K in FF miles. I would fly to City X for 500$, earn the 25K, and then use the 25K to visit Friend A. Why? Because now, that airplane ticket to visit Friend A is flexible and changeable (and even a re-deposit of points would cost 50$ rather than the 100$ charge for changing discounted tickets). So, if either Friend A or I, for whatever reason, decide that next week would be better . . . no problem if I'm holding an award ticket.
Maybe the original statement "even the lowest discount fares exceed the fair market value of award travel," which I disagree with had a purpose which came from a different angle, and I have misunderstood. In that case I'd be interested in others points and opinions.
------------------
Got points ? Got smiles !
May 1, 2001 | 8:22 am
#2
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: St Petersburg, FL, USA
Posts: 2,275
A few points:
- if the best domestic discount fare that you can find is $500, then you are doing something terribly wrong. That's why 2 cents is too high of a value.
- While I know that Southwest awards are infinitely changeable, but I've received resistance from UA and AA when changing tickets, which ofter requires a trip to a CTO (UA) or mailing tickets back (AA).
- Many more discount seats are available than award seats at the 25,000 level.
[This message has been edited by Tino (edited 05-01-2001).]
- if the best domestic discount fare that you can find is $500, then you are doing something terribly wrong. That's why 2 cents is too high of a value.
- While I know that Southwest awards are infinitely changeable, but I've received resistance from UA and AA when changing tickets, which ofter requires a trip to a CTO (UA) or mailing tickets back (AA).
- Many more discount seats are available than award seats at the 25,000 level.
[This message has been edited by Tino (edited 05-01-2001).]
May 1, 2001 | 8:34 am
#3
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: 60601 AA/HH/SPG
Posts: 1,090
A $ 0.02 per mile valuation has always seemed high to me.
For me, an earning opportunity is normally measured against a $0.01 valuation. If it beats it, fine, otherwise I let go. More often than not I tend to beat the benchmark.
[This message has been edited by Bourne (edited 06-17-2001).]
For me, an earning opportunity is normally measured against a $0.01 valuation. If it beats it, fine, otherwise I let go. More often than not I tend to beat the benchmark.
[This message has been edited by Bourne (edited 06-17-2001).]
May 1, 2001 | 8:40 am
#4
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Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 46,817
Please also see:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/003114.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/003114.html
May 1, 2001 | 8:44 am
#5
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Montreal / Detroit / Miami
Posts: 745
Tino,
Stay with me here. Of course, most domestic discount tickets are priced at below 500$ but not all. There are many routes where travel is very often at the 500$ level and more. Even for two hour flights.
Also, while Southwest has a very liberal refund/exchange policy (I still have Southwest credit myself) I was basically referring to award reservations per se and not the hassle of returning ticketed journeys. I haven't used a paper ticket for a domestic journey in ages and especially not for award travel. Therefore an e-ticket is easily changed through a telephone call.
As for the availability of seats, of course there are more discount seats. But again it depends on the routes one flies. I have never been denied an award ticket request on domestic routes.
[edited for grammar]
[This message has been edited by Stephen loves Starwood (edited 05-01-2001).]
Stay with me here. Of course, most domestic discount tickets are priced at below 500$ but not all. There are many routes where travel is very often at the 500$ level and more. Even for two hour flights.
Also, while Southwest has a very liberal refund/exchange policy (I still have Southwest credit myself) I was basically referring to award reservations per se and not the hassle of returning ticketed journeys. I haven't used a paper ticket for a domestic journey in ages and especially not for award travel. Therefore an e-ticket is easily changed through a telephone call.
As for the availability of seats, of course there are more discount seats. But again it depends on the routes one flies. I have never been denied an award ticket request on domestic routes.
[edited for grammar]
[This message has been edited by Stephen loves Starwood (edited 05-01-2001).]
May 1, 2001 | 10:45 am
#7
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Tucson, Southern Arizona, North America, Western Hemisphere, The Earth, a small planet in the solar system. Previously OnePass Infinite Platinum Elite, now over entitled 1K
Posts: 2,293
Twice in the last two years I've been able to get last minute reward tickets for friends needing transportation for family emergencies. The lowest published fare in each case was around $2000. Thats pretty good value for 20,000 miles.
May 1, 2001 | 12:25 pm
#8
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: MCI. AA Plat, UA PrmEx., Mrrtt Gold, Hz Pres.Circle, HHonors Gold
Posts: 1,070
My two cents (or 1 FF mile?), based on my AA, UA, and US experience:
- I have never found a situation where the 25K award was available AND low fares were NOT available. If I price out tickets for a domestic routing and find anything higher than about $400, I know good and well that 25K awards are long gone. Perhaps that's because AA and UA are stingier than everyone else and I've been living in the dark for too long. I would love to hear more about the 20K-for-$2000 ticket scenario (routing, airline, etc.).
- I've had slightly better luck getting domestic biz/first-class awards (capacity-controlled, 40K) on somewhat full flights. I've also had good luck using TW short-haul awards, but that's a unique case as far as I know.
- The FF award that is most valuable to me is the 40K "AAnytime" coach award. I have used a couple of these over the past 2 years when I *really* needed to travel, and all airfares - even on circuitous routings or to secondary airports - were $800-1000. Redeem the 40K award, pick your favorite flights, and you've just earned a REAL two to three cents per mile, along with the subjective benefits of flying your preferred route, carrier, times, local airports, etc.
- I also like the relative flexibility when changing an award. Compared to the draconian rules surrounding discounted coach, it's refreshing.
- I have never found a situation where the 25K award was available AND low fares were NOT available. If I price out tickets for a domestic routing and find anything higher than about $400, I know good and well that 25K awards are long gone. Perhaps that's because AA and UA are stingier than everyone else and I've been living in the dark for too long. I would love to hear more about the 20K-for-$2000 ticket scenario (routing, airline, etc.).
- I've had slightly better luck getting domestic biz/first-class awards (capacity-controlled, 40K) on somewhat full flights. I've also had good luck using TW short-haul awards, but that's a unique case as far as I know.
- The FF award that is most valuable to me is the 40K "AAnytime" coach award. I have used a couple of these over the past 2 years when I *really* needed to travel, and all airfares - even on circuitous routings or to secondary airports - were $800-1000. Redeem the 40K award, pick your favorite flights, and you've just earned a REAL two to three cents per mile, along with the subjective benefits of flying your preferred route, carrier, times, local airports, etc.
- I also like the relative flexibility when changing an award. Compared to the draconian rules surrounding discounted coach, it's refreshing.
May 1, 2001 | 1:00 pm
#10
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Berkeley, CA
Programs: UA Gold, peon everywhere else
Posts: 989
I agree that the best use for miles (for me at least) has been on last minute emergency travel. In general, it seems like many of the majors become a lot more flexible in redemption rules when it's REALLY near flight time. In fact, in my experience, that's where the airlines really shine. Some examples for me have been:
1. Next day trip on Delta from SFO/SJC->Lima, Peru when my girlfriend got sick in Cuzco (would have been about a $2-3K ticket for a walk up fare, cost 35K miles)
2. Same day travel SFO->JFK when (the same) girlfriend's father was diagnosed with a heart problem requiring next-day surgery. (cost for medical emergency fare $800, cost 25K miles)
3. same-day travel SFO->PIT when (the same) girlfriend's sister went into labor and she wanted to be there with her (didn't even bother to price that one, but cost us 25K miles).
4. next-day travel Fresno->IAD when an aunt's sister went into a coma (travel was for the aunt). (best fare we found was $800, cost us 25K miles)
Also, for emergency travel, the flexibility to change the return dates is pretty nice (while you do get that on a medical emergency fare, you don't with a advance purchase one, as was mentioned earlier.)
So, I've generally done better than $0.02/mile in my redemption. (And that's without factoring in the girlfriend gratitude factor, which is probably worth even more than $0.02/mile)
Dan
1. Next day trip on Delta from SFO/SJC->Lima, Peru when my girlfriend got sick in Cuzco (would have been about a $2-3K ticket for a walk up fare, cost 35K miles)
2. Same day travel SFO->JFK when (the same) girlfriend's father was diagnosed with a heart problem requiring next-day surgery. (cost for medical emergency fare $800, cost 25K miles)
3. same-day travel SFO->PIT when (the same) girlfriend's sister went into labor and she wanted to be there with her (didn't even bother to price that one, but cost us 25K miles).
4. next-day travel Fresno->IAD when an aunt's sister went into a coma (travel was for the aunt). (best fare we found was $800, cost us 25K miles)
Also, for emergency travel, the flexibility to change the return dates is pretty nice (while you do get that on a medical emergency fare, you don't with a advance purchase one, as was mentioned earlier.)
So, I've generally done better than $0.02/mile in my redemption. (And that's without factoring in the girlfriend gratitude factor, which is probably worth even more than $0.02/mile)
Dan
May 1, 2001 | 1:08 pm
#11
Suspended
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 1,604
I agree that international usually gives the best value. Would I pay $2,000 to fly SEA-FCO first class for summer travel or to Carnaval in NE Brasil first class? (100,000 miles = $.02/mile) YOU BET!
I consider the tax savings on an award to be of greater value than the accrual of miles if you paid for the ticket. ie a $2000 ticket would require ~$3000 of income and would earn with bonus miles ~40,000 miles or $800 in value.
Of course the best is a cheap ticket and a free upgrade certificate.
I consider the tax savings on an award to be of greater value than the accrual of miles if you paid for the ticket. ie a $2000 ticket would require ~$3000 of income and would earn with bonus miles ~40,000 miles or $800 in value.
Of course the best is a cheap ticket and a free upgrade certificate.
May 1, 2001 | 3:45 pm
#12
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,960
Best frequent flyer award ticket deal I had domestically was last year as a medallion member redeeming 25K old DL miles for an award from the old medallion award chart. HNL-JFK-LAS-HNL on DL, first class, no-blackout dates, for 25K (25K x $.02 = $500). The itinerary priced out at around $4,800.
May 1, 2001 | 5:43 pm
#13
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: SNA/LAX
Programs: AA EXP 4MM
Posts: 1,609
On AA, you can add stopover segments on your routing which makes your award ticket even more "valuable". Try doing that on a discount ticket. I've done it on both Plan Ahead and Anytime tickets. This is why I value the AAdvantage program over Mileage Plus.
More bang for you mile.
More bang for you mile.
May 1, 2001 | 9:39 pm
#14
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Sunny SYDNEY!
Programs: UA Million Miler. (1.9M) Virgin Platinum. HH Diamond + SPG Gold
Posts: 32,351
I would never conceive using 25K points for ANY USA ticket to be honest. For 25K points on UA we can all upgrade a SYD-NYC type flight from low coach fare to Business and First Class, all the way. Difference in price between coach and pointy end on same route? Try about $US8,000 - $9,000.
Work that one out at pennies per point.
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~ Glen ~
Work that one out at pennies per point.
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~ Glen ~
May 2, 2001 | 12:44 am
#15
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Abu Dhabi UAE
Programs: EY Plat, IHG Plat Amb
Posts: 895
Yes, I have to agree with ozstamps. Not living in the US means not having good chances for upgrades, from Singapore every flight is international. Then upgrading with miles makes them much better spent. US$ 1000 flies you economy to Europe or US from here. 60 000 miles upgrades you both ways. Those Business class tickets cost US$ 4000 and above. 60 000/3000 is 0.20 cents per mile.
I am not claiming that this is the true value of a mile, but it does amount to better spent miles for me. On top of that, upgrade tickets still count on your milage ticker (WP gives me 30 000 for an intercont trip) reducing the cost to 30 000 for the upgrade)
I am not claiming that this is the true value of a mile, but it does amount to better spent miles for me. On top of that, upgrade tickets still count on your milage ticker (WP gives me 30 000 for an intercont trip) reducing the cost to 30 000 for the upgrade)