Amen!

Perhaps you are unaware that some FT forums now openly have an employee paid to do just that. And clearly it wouldn't take but one person to monitor relevant forums for items of interest to their own firm, then forward each to the appropriate department for action or further research. Search engines are remarkable in that ability, and with the use of 'bots' and other tools it can be a simple matter.

And there are, and have been since even before the internet, "clipping services" that do exactly what you are talking about, for a subscription fee.

Last July at the FT FAQ in Montreal, several AC Forum FTers were invited to meet with 2 Air Canada vice presidents as a result of FlyerTalk. Let there be no doubt, airlines watch what's going on here very closely.

Travel4Free,

(Hi)

Keep it to yourself, well, dont do that, but by george don't post it here! I am all for sharing of information where you can, but if you have something so good that it would make any mileage addict shake and wiggle and hat dance til dawn, DONT DO IT!

Right now, there are deals/combinations/schemes if you will that if published in 1 tidy little package, would bring down the industry - thus destroying everything that brings us to FT- and they are totally legit. That's all I will say. I debated for a long time posting some "mileage orgasm of the millenium" threads - i guess just 3 would be technically possible... but anyway, the point is, I didnt do it, and I am sure many others out there have withheld certain killer deals to. Self preservation perhaps, but wise and necessary.

I think what you have is something much more than "just" a $29 RT to paris type deal, thats a one time for a few hours type thing (and even if it wasnt posted here, that/those types of deals would have been caught within hours or a few daysvas the airline updated the fare sheets anyway). So, as much as everyone tries to share, some things shouldn't be.

I think you know your reputation on FT is good, you've been helpful and reliable for many things in the past, and if you have such serious doubts about being helpful in this case... well, that says it all.

kokonutz said:
I have subscribed to this theory since a few of us discussed it at the PIP. At the SEA get-together in Sept. 2000, we had a table of folks who contributed some really incredible loopholes. We all agreed at that dinner to NOT share them with the masses here, but only amongst ourselves and a few others, lest they go away.

Ken-

I know that some travel companies have employees who lurk/post certain boards. AA is a good example, Starwood and Hilton are others (although the companies vary as to how much they "sanction" the poster). And certainly, great value is added by the pilots, FAs, reservations agents, and other aviation industry employees who post to FlyerTalk and other large aviation boards (I follow about a half-dozen of them).

I am simply asking the question whether all of these program changes are a result of FlyerTalk, or of something else?

Did Hilton stop giving away multiple profile update bonuses because of FT, or did they stop the practice because it was a bug to begin with? (They can certainly discover the multiple bonus activity without reading the HHonors board on this or any other website.)

Was foreign-currency-for-miles shut down because of FT, or because nearly every credit card and financial services company already actively closes cash-advance-type loopholes wherever they exist, and Citibank was simply following suit?

As noted before, MHD existed long after its post and use by FTers. The popular media caught on to it, and the airlines still let it go on for five months after that. Who knows...perhaps they are simply changing their fare structures for the summer? I'm grasping for AC's reasoning here...but I doubt it's FT, or MHD's wouldn't have had a 7 month lifespan.

Did United nuke the original Baht run because of FT, or because they noticed people reaching 1K in their internal systems without spending hardly any money to get there?

Does the Delta RPU initiate their quest to ferret out FF-hounds by reading posts on FT, or do they run programs to scour their own internal systems looking for strange routings?

In conclusion, I *do* believe that if you post something illegal or quasi-legal on this (or any other) website, there's a reasonable chance that the company being swindled will find out about it. If you post a LEGAL mileage run on this board, I doubt that the airlines are going to change their route structures as a result of your post. Again, I could be wrong, but I'm just not buying the grand conspiracy theory. I don't give the airlines that much credit.

karen2 (and others): but UA made it clear on its Chat night that segments are only good for status if flown in the US and that the baht runs for segments will NOT qualify!

I heard that the UA representatives said something like 'excluding' TG segments from being counted. But I still have to see, that UA changed that rule (in my experience they didn't change it yet up to today).

And I can't believe that they (UA) said only inner US flights would count (all my Ansett, Lauda, Austrian, SAS, LH and TG flight segments so far in 2001 did clearly count as status miles and status segments in my Mileage Plus account - and so would any outside US UA flight segment anyway!).

I am all for tip sharing openly.

I value the profit for all FlyerTalkers to learn and use the tips instantly (but may be for a shorter period only) higher than the exclusive privilege for a few for (may be only) a longer time.

[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited 05-22-2001).]

tvl4free

For a discussion that has run into 70 odd posts just to make up your mind, I hope you understand that you put yourself in a catch-22 situation.

If you do not post, you lose your credibility. Senior member comments will carry a lot of weight! and in true FT spirit, they are voting "yes" for the post.

If you do post, it has to measure up to all this hype. If it does not, you lose your credibility again.

It better be real good because anything less than that would burn your hands.

Bourne....very interesting points! True I would say!

D

tvl4free:

Although I am dying to make a mileage run, I have now come to the conclusion: Don't post it!

I was particularly affected by the excellent article posted Mr. Ken hAAmer about the MHD route.

Also, part of the attraction of a mileage run is in the joy experienced from solving a puzzle. It's simply great to know the existance of US run and that knowledge will keep everyone guessing and trying. How fun! Once the airline finds out about the run and shut it down, it will not only make fares more expensive for everyone but also take the fun out of it.

Perhaps you can at least tell us which airline it is. If it's not one that I usually fly, then I won't worry about it.

I am very pleased that such an esteemed member of FT has weighed in with his opinion.

WHile I understand the practicality of keeping loopholes for oneself and ones friends, I come to FT for what I may learn and for what I may share. If I don;t learn how to look for tips I won't evr have much to share. I totally agre w/ Rudi that even if a loophole closes early, if it benefits the larger group I am all for it. I didn;t join FT to be in a new club w/ a secret handshake - I joined because an online friend, dhammer53, suggested it. I found it to be a place where a LOT of the posters know more than myself but I am learning...and I have found new friends and relish the info we share. But if it turns into a group ull of email lists it won't be as valuable or as heartwarming.

tvl4free,

I'm not sure your run will be of much use to many of the people here. You and I have discussed, in email, other UA segment runs that we've found together almost at the same time last year. If this new mother-of-all-UA-domestic-runs that you've found is anything like the other ones we've discussed, than it will be very difficult to book due to capacity controls and limited flights that must fit the restrictive rules.

It seems to be a run that one must bend over backwards when planning. If you're not flexible in your flight times and dates, you won't be able to get the right fare. We've discussed some six, eight, and ten segment runs. These runs were a real pain in the ... to book on the Internet travel sites, due to their limited ability to let you book multiple stop tickets. I wonder if the new run you've found will even be possible to book on the public travel sites at all! Will we have to have access to a CRS like you do to book this run?

So I think it probably doesn't matter if you post it or not. If you do post it, it seems that it won't be more than a curiosity to most people here. And for those that did try to actually book it, it would be nearly impossible with the likes of Travelocity, Expedia, and ITN.

It took much trial, error, and time spent for me to master booking six and eight segment runs on such services!

2 points:

1) Rudi, You say you belive in "tip sharing openly" and making info open to "ALL flyertalkers not an exclusive few"... seems you are hypocritical on this point. You are a founding memeber of moremiles which is closed to some from this board. Yet the common denominator is all the people on that board met on this board. It does not seem like you truely believe in open sharing of tips as we cannot see the ones you post on Moremiles... It looks like you raided Randy's board and want it both ways. Tips from here, without sharing your other board.

2) Travel4free, we now have a second post asking for begging? Give me a break... You come up with ONE run that does not benefit 95% of the Flyertalkers and now we must worship you and BEG? Post the darn thing or shut up! This has nothing to do with something being taken away. If you never posted it we wouldn't miss it would we? By posting the "question" people naturally want it... duh... so once you mention it you might as well post it. You should have made up your mind before mentioning anything. Why the second post talking about your criteria for a run? Is this to enhance your self proclaimed "guru" status? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif I mean if your not sure you're going to post it... why ask and tease people? Hmm? And sorry it took so long to respond? Please... more ego stroking...you were in live chat for over 2 hours yesterday... that's busy? You time is full? Just post it and be done with it or shut up! Pick one... either one... I got 300,000 miles last week for a $1100, see any posts by me asking if I should post a run? Should we all make everyone ask before we contribute a run to the board? Or you're just special? I can't wait for the third installment of "As flyertalk turns"... where is the village idot when you need him?
Well here is the latest link looking for begging... I guess three are better than 2!
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum50/HTML/006333.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

[This message has been edited by cigarman (edited 05-22-2001).]

This was exactly the situation with the MHD. See Summary of MHD Posts for some examples.

MHDs were very complex, and many did the non-standard 16-segment YOW-CUN MHD. Depending on where you were originating and where you wanted to go, you had to pick different destinations with different flights on different days. The itineraries were so complex that even Air Canada reservations were unable to price them and had to refer them to their "fares department." (Most probably a contributing factor in their demise.)

Yet in spite of this complexity, many people learned how to set them up and execute them. Regularly.

Then it's time to come up with a third option. And a fourth. And fifth. And so on. Certainly "post" and "don't post" can't be the only two options, can they?

It seems self-evident that it is not possible to use this tip instantly.

I understand the motives of those who say post it publicly -- they want to make sure that the greatest number of FTers will benefit. The problem is the logic is flawed; no one will be able to use this one instantly, ergo, no one will benefit.

The question is not "Is it better for everyone to know or only a few to know?" The real question is "Is it better for no one to benefit or for some to benefit?"

I don't mind the answer one way or another, but you must understand the question before you can give an answer.

Gruezi cigarman

Every frequent-travel tip I ever posted anywhere on the www I also posted on FylerTalk.

Unfortunately some of my old friends from the very first FlyerTalk days left this 'home' and I don't want to reduce the contact with them to simple one-ton-one e-mails - I do my best that not only myself but all FlyerTalkers can profit from me maintaining such contacts and from my active (and even supporting) participation on other Frequent-Flier sites on the www (the site you mention, cigarman, has been founded more than 2 years ago ...).

I haven't seen yet any rule/standard/moral-obligation not to paticipate on other boards/e-mail lists on the www.