US BAHT RUN 'Equivalent' identified...
 

... should I post it here?

It has come to my attention thru various roundabout sources, that certain very prominent FTers are considering a 'for profit venture' from the Baht Run itinerary which I posted late last year... and scuze me, but, 'that's all I have to say about that' period!

However in other news, and FWIF, I have now identified the 'US Baht Run Equivalent'. So my question to you is whether or not this type of information should NOW be posted here on FT...???

I mean, do we want all FTers and 'the world' to know about it? Do we want the airlines themselves to know about it? And most important, do we want 'the users' to know about it? Should I share this information here - or somehow share in secret? Or, should I just 'keep it to myself'. (Nobody's been told thus far!).

I've always tried to help FTer's understand the legitimate rules of the game. But, quite frankly, I've been burned, and burned alot lately! The climate has changed... And, from time to time, I'm castigated for posting legitimate mileage earning opportunities!

I am at a loss. What should I do? Maybe a lengthy debate pro and con will help me make
up my mind.

Please, please - help me decide what to do!

Sincerely,

tvl4free

P.S. Senior member comments will carry a lot of weight!

Post it. Share your wealth of knowledge with the rest of the community. If certain info is traded privately, what becomes of the community that we have created? Airlines and hotels will certainly be able to infiltrate any private discussion group by swearing they are an honest Joe. Once that happens, the private groups will give up, realizing their efforts are futile. Besides, it's fun to brag to the whole mileage-addicted world about your saavy and intelligence.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif


------------------
Addicted to airline miles? Check out: Mileage Workshop

IMHO, being castigated is kind of a "badge of honor" for FT'ers, no? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

And FWIW, you should probably do whatever YOU feel is in the best interests of ALL involved, as well as for yourself! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

And surely, kindly email me the details too please! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Sleep on it! All the very best! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

-Mark

I probably haven't been around long enough to be considered truly senior, but think I've been around long enough to chime in.

Personally, I think you should post it.

I also think that anyone who tries to re-use FT info for profit should be ashamed of him or herself.

It is a very tough call these days.

Over in the AC forum we assume that the MHD has been shutdown due to publicity on FT. It is quite a loss for those who have been doing it...

Dorian

T4F,

POST IT....and let the chips fall where they may. If you don't post the info, then not even a few of us can benefit.

I cite as an example those lucky stiffs (clearing throat) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif who bought those Paris tix at basement pricing! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

T4F, you can expect an e mail from me at 0400 Zulu otherwise. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Thanks. Don't worry.

Dan4miles!

Isn't that what FT get-togethers are for?

I guess in a way it is why this board exists...

besides...looks like the Baht Run will be dead sometime in the next year as Thai slashes there 23 domestic routes to 6.

Dorian

My 2 cents...
1) A "Baht Run" is really a UA Run. As such it belongs only in the UAforum NOT the buzz. UA is no longer even the largest UA carrier. I realize that their are more UA flyers on FT... but I myself am tired of all the UA stuff in the buzz.
2) Whoopie, SO WHAT? A new US baht run... There are many many low cost US runs on all carriers... including UA. It really looks like ego stroking. "beg me to post my new run"... Either post it or not. I really could care less as I don't fly UA. However, if you do post it, how about the correct forum?
We tend to share our runs on the CO board without all the strife and drama. I cannot imagine why you would be hesitant to post a legimate ticketed trip, other than for ego gratification. But as always... I can (and often am) wrong.

Well, after writing this I thought was that too harsh? But, now I see you have a "deal of the week"... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/004588.html

Perhaps, you have heard of the mileage run or (in this case) the CO forum?

[This message has been edited by cigarman (edited 05-20-2001).]

treavel4free:
I vote to post it. Many, if not most, of the people who post on these boards are in it for the miles. Along the way, most of us honestly try to help out the others along the way with informational needs, questions, etc. In a group as large as flyertalk, there will always be a few people who are different.
If you have something that you feel will help a lot of people, please post it. I would agree with Cigarman that your question should probably have included the carrier name.
Feel free to email me if you want to discuss further.
Ed

Whoa, I guess I have missed something. From TVL4Free assertion that he's been 'burned' or Cigarman's response. I've benefited greatly from both of your various posts - and I thank you. However, it seems that there is so much more going on behind the scenes that I've missed.

I say post it and maybe Cigarman is right, if it's just UA maybe it should be in the UA forum with a reference in The Buzz for those who would like to qualify for the elite UA level at a faster pace. I fly UA and CO for the most part, but if there was some crazy BHAT run on DL I would want to know about it, so it would be nice if were posted in The Buzz as a don't frequent to Delta Forum.

Anyway, catch y'all later, KB.



------------------
Ken in Sacramento

Please post it.

Perhaps a compromise for location would be the alliance threads, i.e. if it applies to UA, then it may apply to LH and SAS and...., etc., so the Star board would work.

Thanks in advance!

Nobbi

I apologize. I had friends over for a BBQ on Sunday. A friend that likes to to do silly things that urk me posted nothingness under my handle since I left my computer on Flyer Talk. So I removed the meaningless post.

[This message has been edited by ChanelCinq (edited 05-22-2001).]

Same as above. I apologize for thommsf's behavior.

[This message has been edited by ChanelCinq (edited 05-22-2001).]

Certainly people here are creative enough to think of ways to circulate useful information other than just posting it in FlyerTalk. And let me assure you that if it is posted here, it will be shut down in short order. Let me tell you about the Mexican Hat Dance experience.

For those of you who don't already know, the Mexican Hat Dance (or MHD for short) was a very clever use of international fare tariffs for flights originating in Canada. For many reasons, including an airline monopoly in Canada (proceeded by an oligopoly) but also including our small population and vast territory, airfares within Canada and from Canada to the US are obscenely high when compared to the US airfares.

But for equally varied reasons, flights from Canada to Mexico are very inexpensive. As it turns out, if you bought a business class ticket (or in some cases even a restricted economy ticket) you had stopover privileges in many cities throughout Canada and the US.

As an example let's look at a trip I made in December 2000. I needed to go from Vancouver (home) to Toronto for about a week. I then needed to go to Chicago for a few days. After that, I wanted to go to San Francisco for Christmas, and eventually return home to Vancouver. The best price I could get for this itinerary was about $5400, in economy. If I were to do it in Business class the cost would be almost $7000.

But instead I bought a ticket to Guadalajara, Mexico. I flew YVR-YYZ-ORD-GDL-SFO-YVR, stopping for as long or as short as I wanted in each city. I stopped in YYZ and ORD. But ironically, even though it was a ticket to Guadalajara, I only stayed there long enough to clear immigration and customs, hit the lounge to use the bathroom, have a snack and check my e-mail -- in total perhaps 2 hours. (Others have done “quick turnarounds” in as little as 55 minutes.) I then continued on to San Francisco where I again stopped for several days before going home to Vancouver.

What did I get? Well, first off I went in business class (and in comfort) the entire way. I got the use of the Mexicana lounge simply by way of the business class ticket. I also had the benefit of a completely flexible ticket, changeable at any time, fully refundable and no restrictions, and being a walk-up fare, I bought it the day before travel.

I got a 25% Class-of-Service bonus that is included in my elite status qualifying total. I got extra segments. I got to stop in those various cities for as long as I needed. I picked up several thousand extra qualifying miles, that also got the 25% COS bonus. (In the end I got an additional 3300 Q-miles, and about 5000 bonus miles.) I saved at least 3 upgrade coupons, and I travelled in business on Mexicana even though I don't have upgrade privileges on MX. (The MHD motto: We don' need no steekin' upgrades.)

And what did I pay for this trip which originally priced out at $7000? For going to GDL and spending a few hours, I paid $1336. Total. Fees, taxes, PFCs, everything. $1336. Canadian dollars, no less. And most important, perfectly legal.

(This had the additional benefit of alternatively astonishing, and then scaring the hell out of, travel agents.)

As you might imagine, this perked the interest of Air Canada forum members. At first there were only a few of us willing to try it. But as we did, other began to take advantage of the MHD. And in short order, it caught on like wildfire. People just were just astonished at the benefits of this technique. It got to the point were over the last month, we had several members doing MHDs at the same time, passing each other along the way, sometimes meeting in groups of 2 or 3 or 4 in Mexico city or other Mexican destinations. As I write this, there are 3 AC forum members in the air (right now) on different planes, all doing MHDs. So you could say it caught the attention of Air Canada forum members.

It also caught the attention of the national media. In late December an article entitled "Mexican Hat Dance Brings Cheap Flights, More Points" appeared in the Canadian equivalent of USA Today. At the same time, it was described on a national TV program. This made us nervous, even though we continued whistling bravely through the cemetery. There was of course the problem of publicly tweaking AC's nose. But it caused something else to happen.

Flyertalk.com was mentioned in the article, and immediately we had a steady stream of new members who joined because they'd seen the article. Many of these newbies went on to become productive and contributing members of the forum. The AC forum came abuzz with talk about the MHD. There was so much discussion and interest we had to start maintaining an index page of posts, as there was just too much information. (See: Summary of MHD posts.)

Of late, the national media again became interested. In one case, a TV reporter wanted to bring a small digital camcorder on a trip to Cancun, and do a piece. On top of that, due to an Air Canada promotion that rewarded segments, people were starting to do 16-segment itineraries, going from Ottawa to Cancun (almost due south of Ottawa, and on the east coast of the continent) via Vancouver and LAX. Each of these 16 segment tickets required the direct intervention of the AC fares department. Travel agents who couldn't believe the fare started refusing to ticket. Even if they did ticket the itinerary, they invariably called AC to make sure the fare was legit, which it was. Then there was the mailing in of boarding passes for retroactive credit on missing flights. Flights weren't posted for two reasons -- with completely flexible ticket people were making changes willy nilly (and legally) as their plans or desires changed. And there were the missed connections and cancelled flights that are inevitable when you start flying 16 segments in three countries over 60 hours.

But on Wednesday last (May 16, 2001) it all came crashing down before our very eyes. One member who had reserved but not yet ticketed got a call from his TA, advising him that the previously quoted sub-$1400 fare was now over $6000. Routes that many had just recently paid $1290 for, were now coming up at over $9000. Let there be no doubt, the MHD was dead.

But more importantly for this discussion is how it came about. Because of the Star Alliance, you simply picked whatever flight or route or destination you wanted on AC, UA, or MX. If UA didn't cover the route, then AC did. If not, then MX would. It was like picking items off a Chinese menu. Some thought it was more like shooting fish in a barrel.

This flexibility also meant that no single carrier could stop it. It would take co-ordinated action by all three airlines.

And on Wednesday, co-ordinated action they took. AC changed valid routes to preclude connections within Canada. UA strategically removed selected useful cities from their routes. And MX changed their routing tables wholesale. And we literally watched on Wednesday afternoon, while route after route initially displayed MHD capabilities, only to have Expedia display "Fare rules not available at this time, please try later" minutes afterwards.

Have no doubt, AC, UA, and MX planned, set-up and executed an MHD ambush on Wednesday, and they executed it very well.

So it comes to this... we have almost everyone above posting "Yeah! Post it! That way we can all use it." But if you do post it, and it is effective and useful, then consider it a one-time deal. Do it now, or forever hold your piece.

Here's the real question -- do you carefully let people know about, perhaps denying a few? Or do you let everyone know, including the airlines, denying everybody except the few who will be able to do it this month, this week, this day?

The Mexican Hat Dance. October 4, 2000 - May 16, 2001. R.I.P.

[Heavily edited to correct a zillion grotesque spelling and grammtical errors. (I was too embarrassed to leave it up there in it's original form.)]

[This message has been edited by Ken hAAmer (edited 05-20-2001).]

I think you should post it here. If you decide not to, please e-mail me with the details.

Thanks,

RKG

Ken hAAmer, I agree with your post and find it to be a very fresh thoughtful perspective. Question is, why did you remove it? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif

A loophole in the AC system that lasted over 7 months? Is it possible that they simply decided that their marketing promotion was successful and complete? Even if it was shut down due to FlyerTalkers taking advcantage of it, think about how many people did benefit from it in those seven months. How many fewer would have if the info was not posted online?

As we all know from our years of travel experience: no good offer lasts forever.



------------------
Addicted to airline miles? Check out: Mileage Workshop

I agree. This thread has absolutely no business being in the "Buzz" forum, a forum reserved solely for "Discussion of the latest frequent flyer buzz..."

Face it, no frequent flyer ever changes allegiances, so no DL or CO or AC of CA or AI flyer would ever have any interest in what's going on with UA, or any other carrier. Frequent flyers never move from one city to another where perhaps a different airline is prominent. And no frequent flyer ever flies an airline other than their 'own', so high tier elite status on another carrier wouldn't be of any interest or value at all, even if it could be attained for a minimal cost.

I say keep this forum reserved for items that that belong here -- that is, items that have absolutely nothing to do with any specific Frequent Flyer program. Speaking as someone who never visits the UA forum (or CO, for that matter) clearly this thread has absolutely no interest for or relevance to me whatsoever.

If it did, I'd have already posted my comments about it.

Not quite that simple. My understanding is that tariffs have to be filed in advance with regulatory bodies, and I've oft heard the number 45 days. As it turns out, MX and AC made changes to MHDs from YVR and YYC (coincidentally the home cities of the two original proponents and biggest users of the MHD) 47 days after the article appeared in the newspaper (in mid February.) Is all this coincidence? Quite possibly, but I don't know. It just has this ichy feel about it.

Even after those changes, we were still able to use MHDs, but from YYC and YVR they were a lot less convenient, although still cost effective. Conspiracy theorists might argue it was a warning (unheeded) or a dry run, that was 'tested' until say mid March, when a full-scale plan was drawn up, filed in early April, and executed in mid-May. We're way off the Art Bell scale here of course, but the actions the airlines took seemed to be closely proportional to the amount of interest and MHD activity. And given the multi-airline nature of the response, I'm pretty sure it wasn't just 'regularly scheduled maintenance.'

The thing is, it wasn't a promotion. These fares existed forever, as did the routes. They were the regularly published J, Y, and discount econo fares. There was no promotion, at least until AC FTers started promoting it. It's just that no one ever seemed to notice it before, or put it into action. Because one airline in Canada took over the only other major airline in Canada, things got real ugly here for most of 2000. And we responded in kind.

A dozen, perhaps less. Not many in the grand scheme of things.

With careful management, perhaps many more could have benefitted. And that's my warning here. If this "run" is posted, then it may well be that a very select and very small group of people may benefit from it. And I mean very small group.

C'mon guys! We're all more clever than that. You can't be flying all over the country or all over the world and not learn a few tricks. Just because "it's never been done before" doesn't mean it can't be done. It just means no one has yet figured out the better way to do it.

A year ago, many people told me I had no choice -- I'd have to simply acede to the new Air Canada world. I said no, tweaked their nose, snuck up behind them and smacked them with their tariffs and danced all over their fares.

With that careful management mentioned above, it could. It's time for FT to learn a few new tricks.

tvl4free: I suggest that you enjoy your new found loophole yourself or a with just a few selected friends maybe. (No, I don't ask to participate.)

If your discovery is really like the rather exotic Thai Baht pass and can be done in the US it will surely draw a lot of attention.

Definitely within hours there will be 'ready-to-run' recipes posted here how to exploit the loophole to the max. These will give even the more modest FF the chance to jump the bandwagon.

My fear is that this will ultimately bring the airlines to restrict their fares even further to eliminate the chance of possible loopholes.

I think currently the airlines easily tolerate a few savvy FF to exploit 'specialties' of their listed fares. But with to much publicity they will plug them.

And less loopholes mean less fun for the real FF.

I agree with Cigarman on this one. Spare us the "I'm not sure if you guys are worthy of my knowledge" post. If you've found a worthy (legal) mileage run, share it with the UA and Mileage Run boards. It sounds like you've found something only quasi-legal (or else we wouldn't be discussing this), so I guess you should keep it to yourself.

Most of us have no problems with a link appearing in the Buzz (after all, nearly *all* Buzz topics pertain to one program or another); it's the condescending you-might-be-a-mole-for-the-airlines tone we don't like.

As for whether airlines in Canada or Thailand - or the USA for that matter - are scrutinizing these boards looking to close off good deals, I've always somewhat doubted this, but certainly have no evidence either way. With the MHD (which I know nothing about, other than reading Ken's post), the FT use began in October, the media hype hit in December, and the deals were shut off in May. Somehow I'm missing the FT-killed-the-MHD connection.

Sorry about the negative tone of this post. It's just that sometimes I think we tend to think we are more important that we really are.

I believe that what triggered the airlines to shut down the MHD was not a few VFF's working out MHDs here on FT, it was the threat of the story appearing in the mainstream media (so far it's pretty much been a business-travel column and a short item, as Ken described).

The airlines involved might be willing to put up with us doing it, since they must have had a valid business reason for offering those connecting cities in the first place, but the idea of the great non-travelling public phoning up and asking for "an MHD to Cancun" would be too much for them.

I don't think it's so much the airlines monitoring FT that is the problem, I think it's more the mainstream media that causes the shutdown.

andrew

How do you decide who the "inner circle" that gets to know all these tricks is?

T4F,

DON'T post it.

Dan

Email it to me. I will do the run. Then I will post a trip report (with photos, a la tfung).

How 'bout it?

Mike

OK, I'm a senior member (I think? add 1200 posts to my post count from my former incarnation as dg1) and I say POST IT. Unless you personally really need it to remain for the near future, then what the heck. Let everyone else try to enjoy it while it lasts. Someone's going to notice it eventually.

Well, I don't know about this issue. Like the baht run, it took them almost a year to close the loophole. I think TG segments no longer count for status?

I would probably suggest that you do a few of those runs yourself and see if it's possible first. And when you've had enough of it, then release it to the boards.... depending on how big a loophole it is, I would say that it might take the FF programs a while to close the loophole. And many of the FTers here can benefit before they do so. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

By the way, I hope this US Baht run doesn't involve shuttle flights. I can't imagine sitting in 100 shuttle flights in 2 weeks. No mortal can take that!!!

AMEN!

------------------
Addicted to airline miles? Check out: Mileage Workshop

The only way for 2 people to keep a secret is if one of them is dead.

Might as well post it for all to see. But, post on UA board please.

edit: fat fingers http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by markbach (edited 05-21-2001).]

TVL4FREE I think I am a "senior" Fter and you have gone way out of your way to help others...even beyond the constraints of the board...we talked about that. My idea is to post it and let the miles land where they land..you know who your friends are..e-mail me with details. This is getting way out of hand..and I am sorry it came to this. It is a shame that this topic even came up.

------------------
MRKEY


[This message has been edited by MRKEY (edited 05-21-2001).]


[This message has been edited by MRKEY (edited 05-21-2001).]

Post it. The internet is here to share information for the common good. It doesn't matter to me where you post it. If I don't like the content of a thread, I skip it.

It is in deed, but a sad reality of what the board has grown to be of recent!

I'd say post it.

Sooner or later, someone else is going to find it. Someon is going to publish it - if not here, then in rec.travel.air or elsewhere. UA, or whomever, will find out about it. If they want to shut it down, they will. Not you, not I, not anyone else in FT can prevent this from happening.

The only thing you have any control over is whether FTers will be able to take advantage of whatever this is before that happens.

So, unless delaying public knowledge by a few weeks is important to you or to someone close to you, I'd say post!

Where? There's been a good deal of interest both here and in the UA thread, so I'd suggest there (or in *A) with a link to the other(s).

And if you find something comparable for AA and/or OW, please let me/us know ...

Post it to the mileage run forum, please.

I must admit, I am quite curious about your "quite frankly, I've been burned, and burned alot lately!" comment.

Why wouldn't you want to post it? Isn't that the purpose of FT? If we want arcane hints to secret ways of earning miles, etc., we could stick with aa.com. If the "good deals' start drying up, what's the point of coming here?

But in this case, it won't be for the "common good." It will turn out to be for the good of the airlines, our common enemy. (And "enemy" is the correct term.)

Remember, this is not something you'll be able to do in a single day, and you probably won't even be able to prepare for it in a single day. If it's as effective as has been inferred, then UA may well shut it down on short notice. They may in fact be able to shut it down before anyone has a chance to take advantage of it.

While they may not be looking explicity for deals to shut down, any airline management that is not closely monitoring a forum such as this would be seriously remiss in their duties.

Very Sad how we "horde" our information.
I would always say post things that are legal and benefit our community http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I agree that Ken has a good point here, yet I also think it should be posted in the *A forum for general use. However it is Tvl4free's call here. I hope however you will post it...