All in all a real good reason to invest in those noise-cancelling headphones and perhaps some type of audio device (for those MD-80's). Not totally effective, perhaps, but it can dull the pain.

[This message has been edited by FoothillFlyer (edited 01-08-2001).]

Adam- What would be your cut-off age for such no kids flights. The problem with that plan is not only would it upset people, it would not totally be effective in eliminating annoying kids on flights. Allow me to elaborate: I am a firmly beleive that with kids the more they fly the better the behavior. Therefore, its totally possible to have a well travelled 4 year old who understands his/her expectations better than a 10 year old who is taking his first flight. An alternative is too have status only flights, which would eliminate some adults but also kids who dont fly enough to behave well, in any class.
I am not advocating either plan, rather pointing out that having status only flights is probably more acceptable than no kid flights.

You are mistaken if you are referring to infants or toddlers. Little kids are not used to being strapped in a seat for a long time. There is no way to know how they will behave until you board the plane with them for the first time. Even in an automobile, where the kid is strapped in a car seat, he/she can look out the window in just about any direction and see lots of different things. On a plane, even in a window seat, most of the kid's view from the seat is completely still -- 100% still if you're in the middle. That's what drives kids crazy -- being strapped down with nothing to look at. Coloring books and toys help but it's impossible to re-create the environment of the living room or playground.

Re the idea of child-free or non-elite-free flights:

Read today's paper. Now, two airlines will be disappearing soon (until recently just one). The most basic improvement, More Room on AA (appreciated by all passengers), happened only because AA is making tons of money, and they claim their yield management system will keep their revenue the same.

Restricting the availability of seats on a plane (fare inventory is not a restriction towards people) is a recipe for disaster in the airline business -- actually, most businesses. It would only work in a regulated or monopolistic environment.

JS- Allow me to clarify- I didnt mean that airlines should have elite only flights. My point was that since different kids develop differntly, both in their maturity and flight experiance, if you are going to call for any sort of segregation, which i wouldnt, that it would make more sense to do it on status rather than age. Again, that wouldnt work well at all for the airlines, but would serve the orginal purpose of eliminating noisy kids better than an age limit. Follow?

Always an interesting topic. I personally love babies and children, it's their rude, selfish parents I sometimes have problems with. Some of my worst experiences on planes involve being seated near children whose parents let them run rampant. One of my best experiences last year was being seated next to a charming, well-behaved young girl of about 9 who taught me all about Pokemon.

I'll give anyone who wants to travel with their kids the benefit of the doubt for trying their best to keep their kids in line and to make their babies comfortable. For those parents who could care less about the comfort of everyone around them, well, I can deal with it for a few hours, but I really feel sorry for their kids.

For those here who say that parents with kids, including babies, don't have the right to fly in first, I completely disagree. It's not some exclusive club. They have as much right to be there as you do. But just as I wish no one were rude on a plane, whether in first or coach, I would hope that those who travel with their children would try their best to make the cabin a pleasant as possible place for their fellow travellers.

FoothillFlyer: Those noise-cancelling headphones deaden the background noise, but not other kinds of sound. They can make other noise going on even more irritating than it normally would be. A couple of months ago, I was seated in front of a couple (of adults) who were carrying on a loud conversation for two solid hours, non-stop, in the two seats behind me. My Bose noise cancelling headphones made it worse!

I've heard different. The estachian (sp?) tube between the ear and the throat is smaller in babies and the pressurization changes may cause extreme discomfort, causing them to cry. I've heard parents should be educated on assisting their babies overcome this problem, but as a non-parent, I'm not going to give parents advice in this forum. Maybe ear plugs to hand out to any passengers bothered by the baby noise would be helpful. I've also seen parents take crying babies to stand around the back lavatory.



[This message has been edited by outoftown (edited 01-08-2001).]

It has been more than two decades since I have flown with a baby of my own and, of course, mine were always perfect. As my true memory serves, however, I think it best that persons who have not flown with babies of their own (by birth, adoption, or casual acquisition) should refrain from comment. God will indubitably get you someday for anything you unwittingly choose to say about controlling babies before you have experienced that quest.

Most babies have read very few travel guide books, don't understand the rules and, therefore, react out of pure instinct. When their little ears hurt, they scream. More power to them--it equalizes the pressure.

Try to reflect back on your behavior when you flew as a baby and judge these precious little human beings accordingly.

Actually, if the noise is that unbearable for you, it would probably be easier for you to get up and hike back to coach than to expect a mom or dad trying to cope with a miserable infant to take that trek.

For me, it boils down to basic respect for your fellow travelers, independent of class of service. My experience has been that the problems generally arise with the parents and not the children.

There was the Dad who upgraded his wife and two children, both under three, from PVD-ORD and then demanded that everyone in the cabin move around "to just help him keep his family together." Several folks were willing to help him out until he chastised us for not moving fast enough for his taste. He left his wife and one child in First and went back to coach with the other child so he could get two seats together as no one would help him post-lecture. Also, why should being childless on the flight somehow usurp your right to stay in the seat that you paid for and selected?

Also, the proud Papa who parked one of his six month old twin boys on the seat next to me, not even buckling him in, while he and his wife sat in front of me and the Nanny and the other son sat across the aisle. The FA came by and chastised me for "neglecting my child" and I pointed out that I was childless and where she might find the parents. They turned and insisted that since the seat was vacant, I should watch their son, as they were sure he would be no trouble. The FA promptly returned the child to his proud Papa in time for take off and declared the seat next to me as "unsafe due to a problem with the seat belt."

The greatest, though, was the young lady playing jacks in the aisle while everyone had to step around her and her Mother insisting that she wasn't a bother to anyone. FAs with serving carts had a different opinion. It seems the little darling could only find nine of the ten jacks. Her Mother, fortunately, found the tenth one in the dead of night (FC Suites SFO-LHR) when she stepped on it in her stocking feet on her way to the lavatory. The flight attendant asked to be mindful of the other passengers and please be quiet.

Kids will fuss and cry now and again, but it seems trivial compared to the blather most of their parents produce.

Two things:
Infants pay at leat 10% of the full fare, and
2 years and older 67%, so if these tickets are not upgraded once, at least the older kids pay more than most upgraded flyers.
If infants cry and/or have ear pressure problem, they are best breastfeeded.

However, the bulkhead seat that I saw on QF was directly behind the business class section. There was a thin board between business and economy and the baby basket hung on that board. My sister was sitting on the asile (seat G) of the bulkhead (luckily I was in First!) and there was a baby in the baby basket next to her. Surprisingly, the parents were assigned the other asile and the middle seat (seat D&E) when infact the baby basket was fixed infront of the two middle seats. So there was an extremely unhappy passenger (seat F) who had the baby basket right in front of him.

Bagold,

I am not sure what plane you flew but on the vast majority of QF 747-s after the last row of biz (row 27) there is the galley, stairs to the upper deck and several toilets which would roughly be about maybe 20-25 feet. With 2 curtains and background noise it is not easy to hear the noise coming from the coach section. I have been in row 27 several times and have had a nice and restful sleep just about always.

For those recommending the use of private/charter jets it would be advnatageous to know that few if any charter jet companies allow their clients to earn FF points and the ones who do have somewhat limited award purchasing power outside that company. Since most if not all FT-ers on this board live for miles then such suggestions seem to be a bit erratic and misleading ones unless the ones who suggest it can say from personal experience that this is not so.

I have a two year old and we fly him back and forth to the US twice a year to visit family. We fly in First/Business as it is part of my ExPat package. My son is generally very very good on the plane and we are often complimented on his behavior. Part of the problem is delays. As a parent knowing when I am going to have my son on the plane I time his sleep patterns for several days before hand in order to have him exhausted when we take off. On 1 Jan we were returning to CDG from PHL on USAirways in FC. The plane was delayed three hours and in that time despite heroic efforts on my part my son fell asleep. When we took off finally he woke up in a horrible mood and screamed for the first hour of the flight. I tried every trick in the book ( I did not then and will not ever resort to putting my hand over his mouth...that would only serve to get most children I know even more freaked out!) but not much could be done. This being said my son was on a full fare FC ticket (almost $7,000) and my wife, son and I were the only passengers in the FC cabin.

Another point is that in FC/Business class on Transatlantic flights you will have your in seat video which gives you a good chance to have your child amused while you head home.

I would rather have a plane load of children all screaming than take another trip with some of my past Business class mates....when was the last time a child defecated on the drink cart/stormed the cockpit?

I wonder if folks like BoSoxFan45 (
"I try to live my life by this principle, and wish society would do the same...
I have the right to swing my hand only so long as it does not hit you.") and Droneklax (I also have a right to a quiet ride) have ever farted 60 mins after dinner was served, or maybe snored while over the Atlantic.

Those of us who don't live in hermetically-sealed bubbles do stuff that affects or infringes upon other people. And the very essence of society and relationships requires a set of tacit understandings to deal with all that.

So if you have ever farted, snored, or done anything else on a plane that infringed on others' serenity, you really haven't got much of anything to say about an infant or toddler who's doing his or her own thing.

wigstheone - I wasn't referring to your post.