Stealing Upgrades
 

Has this truly never been discussed on FT? I tried a search on <steal upgrade> and <theft upgrade> ... nothing matched.

‘Mike Murray’ (is that his real name?) regularly sneaks into First Class and he’s proud of it. He is part of a larger article about cheating in today’s society in the Weekend WSJ..

The article describes Mr Murray's self-upgrading. He's done it four or five times recently. Says: "I felt like I robbed a bank." Goes on to say he's been busted a number of times: "the humiliation of getting sent back to coach is nothing compared to the thrill of a free ride." He has a few other tricks that make him a low life poster boy. Other petty larcenies (by others) described include: stealing gas, ashtrays, golf, wine, movie fares.

I’m sure I saw it once: the ‘gentleman’ across the aisle got up from his seat, went back to econ and plunked his friend into the empty seat next to him. Oh, the fuss he made when his friend was bounced! The ‘gentleman’ started to tap something into his PC and was last seen fuming and retreating to econ, never to be seen again. Presumably he joined his friend in a show of solidarity. He so upset the cabin crew that I wrote a letter for their files in case Mr. sneaky upgrade ever wrote to make wild and crazy accusations.

Ya’ know, on second thought maybe Mike Murray really only told the reporter that he
occasionally gets upgraded for unknown reasons and look how the article turned out!
<very, very tongue in cheek on my part>

Let’s dish some dirt! And those of you outside the USA - stop snickering.

Jim

[This message has been edited by jimquan (edited 08-26-2000).]

The airline should just wait until arrival, and present a bill for the full-fare 1st-class seat. And of course, if you can't pay the bill on the spot, perhaps there are some dishes that need washing...a lot of dishes!

Your link appears to be for subscribers only.

You might want to paraphrase the article a bit more for those who are not subscribers.

At my office, my group's admin. told me how she bought a dress for a party and returned it the next day.

I'm not sure if this behavior is an epidemic but I'm amazed how proud some people are at bending the rules beyond breaking - in effect stealing.

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Someday we'll reach an understanding - meet me halfway that's where I'm going to be.

Sorry I guess that is a subscribers only link. See paraphrase in the edited version above.

I have mentioned a similar experience a few times on the USAirways board. A couple of years ago, I barely made a flight from PIT to SEA... boarded, and found all seats in First full. The pilot asked me to either go to coach or disembark so they "wouldn't be late", so I got off. Only thanks to a diligent gate agent did I finally get my seat. He noticed they had all 24 flight coupons, and mine was one of them. Upshot, they held the flight, found the guy, and ,incredibly, simply moved him to his proper seat. Nothing else. Since then, airlines have become so focused on pushing flights on time, I am certain they would never take the time to do that kind of search today. This kind of wiseguy is probably the same type who makes bogus bookings in First, hoping to have more seats available at flight time for upgrade. What a country.

I seen people bounced from FC at least 5 or 6 times on Continental flights.

Of course with Continental's unlimited upgrades, its rare to see an empty seat in FC.

Several times I've had flight attentants ask to see boarding passes for people in FC.

Is it any surprise in an era where prevailing morality is, "It's only wrong if you get caught?" that you'd have (1) morons bragging how much they love to steal, and (2) reporters giving these idiots a forum?

It is one thing to "work the system". Maximizing your benefits within the confines of a system defined by others is completely acceptable.

Outright theft is another thing entirely. It doesn't matter if the seat is sitting there empty. It means slightly better service to the folks who earned/purchased those FC seats!

Like Boomer, I fly CO, which almost always has full FC. I'd imagine this stunt would be harder to execute there.

Ditto for UA - the rest of the employees sitting there wouldn't recognize the thief. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

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"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

Agree with Jon Toner.

The airline's "product" are their service classes and they are priced accordingly.

IMHO, this is no different than stealing. Paying for one product and then taking another higher priced one that you never purchased or were given.

I've only seen it happen once...when a UA Flight Attendant noticed one more PAX in First than her on-board manifest indicated, and questioned the gentleman. He told her he had upgraded at the last minute, and he couldn't find his new ticket stub. She thanked him and walked away, but she must have been suspicious. A few minutes later she returned to him with a reply communication that she had requested the Captain to send. Seems there was no record of an upgrade for this "gentleman." He just turned to me and grumbled, "Well, I tried." and headed back to Coach without even an apoligy to the FA to whom he had lied to. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

I love it when this happens - I so enjoy watching to see who the cabin crew will chose to question first.

They normaly revert to type, and ask for the boarding pass of anyone vaguely youthful and then they tend to go on what people are wearing.

I enjoy it so much when they get to me - which is normally pretty early on in the process - if I am feeling really naughty I mess about tryign to fing a boarding card for ages (this lulls the cabin crew into the belief that they have found the culprit) and then just wjen they are about to move me anyway, I produce the boarding card and if it is BA they see they were just about to boot a "VIP" - such fun! and normally worth a bottle of Champagne to take away as well. heehee http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Nick

Jon, couldn't have said it better myself.
Unfortunately, I saw this happen once on a Continental flight. While waiting for the FC lav, I heard the two FA's discussing the passenger in 4A who was in the seat but not on the manifest.

During the duration of the flight, I watched as the woman ordered drink after drink, until the FA finally cut her off.

You tinker Merry, isn't F enough fun with out all the leg pulling http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

This topic brings to mind the phrase "a rotten apple spoils the bunch". It is behavior like the stealing of upgrades (not to be too high and mighty about this I admit that I will "steal" an upgraded seat on occassion at an opera after the first intermission if it does not get filled), and the dress buying and returning so it can be worn once for free, that makes things hard for the majority of us that live life adhering to even a minimal standard of personal integrity. Sometimes you just have to shake your head and wonder how these people justify their actions to themselves (when it comes to opera I am an irrational being http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/redface.gif ).

Merry....I like your approach. The respondents on this board are too sanctimonious.

What happened to honesty and ethics.

Maybe ask Bill Clinton? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

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~ Glen ~



[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 08-27-2000).]

I am no "goody goody"--but the thought of being "caught" would make me so apprehensive that I'd be too nervous to enjoy any of the benefits.

David on a United SH!TTLE flight, the benefits of First Class are a pack of prezels and two beers if you are REALLY fast, and if they still have any loaded late afternoon, and if there was any ice to put them in and keep them cold. You might be able to live with that luxury!

Row #1 on a 737 has not legroom, and row 2 doesn't recline much. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif And that's all she wrote on a 737!

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~ Glen ~

Merry, on nearly every BA flight I am queried first at the check-in line and then again on on-board. Admittedly, the staff is quite apologetic when I produce a 1st class bp, and tend to overcompensate for the duration of the flight, so I don't mind. Still I've never been asked on Dick's Upper Class.

I wish the airlines would check FC boarding passes when boarding.

I for one, wouldn't be insulted at all.

I witnessed someone getting caught doing this the other day.

I was in F on a flight this friday from SJC to LAX. A passenger who was just boarding noticed a friend/coworker/acquaintance sitting in F with a empty seat next to him. The person continued on his merry way to Coach.

After the flight took off, the coach passenger came up to F and sat down next to his friend. After a few minutes, a FA came up to the person and politely informed him that they were about to begin the coach beverage service and that he needed to return to his seat. He made some feeble argument that he didn't care for any beverages since it was such a short flight and that he "just needed" to talk to his friend. The FA again politely informed him that he needed to go back to his seach in coach. If they wanted to talk, his F friend could go back to coach and sit with him.

The "F thief" heed and hawed about having tried to upgrade at the gate etc. and that he would have paid for an F seat if their was space (F was only half full). The FA informed him that if he wanted, the FA could process the difference in price between his ticket and the F price. They made such a fuss and decided to pay the F, "just to show the FA that they weren't trying to steal a $%^&*()# F seat!) The difference in price was processed by credit card on the spot. The coach guy then went back to his seat in coach and brought his bags up to F, making all sort of noise and a stink the whole time, slamming the overheads after moving his bags.

Oh well, he was probably a privlidged/spoiled kid when he was young who got whatever he wanted and couldn't believe that he had to pay for an F seat.

It is now considered santimonious to view theft of service as stealing?

You are receiving a service for which you have not either (1) paid or (2) been invited. That is stealing.

The response from the folks in the forum would naturally raise the same ire as if you asked your cable guy what he thought of someone hooking up an illegal converter.


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"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

It's confession time. When I was just a lad of about 20, I was returning from Munich to JFK on DL. I had run terribly late for the flight and the gate agents were shutting the door as I ran down the jetway. As I walked through First, my bags began to slip and I just made to an empty Biz Class seat before I dropped everything. Two FAs rushed up, one took my bags from me and said she'd find a place for them, and the other gently pushed me into my seat, said to strap in because we were pushing back, and handed me a glass of champagne! I knew right away they thought that was my seat, but I just couldn't bring myself to stand up and tell the truth. That was my first flight in Biz ever and I was totally hooked! :-)

To this day I feel guilt over that flight, so I hope the DL gods will forgive me for my transgression! Now, as a tried-and-true road warrior, I hope I've repaid my sins over time...

jAAck, I wasn't soliciting confessions but all contributions are cheerfully accepted. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

There must be a special subcategory; the "I'm taking the first available seat (which just happens to be in First or Biz) because they told me to and we've just got to push back from the gate" upgrade.

Been there, seen that.

hmmm...I think that if you physically seat yourself in a higher class cabin than your boarding pass indicates, and you should be required to pay the difference on the spot, but only if you truely knew that you were not supposed to be in a higher class cabin. I do know that some people don't fly often and do not realize the cabin classes. If a person honestly makes a mistake, and the FA realizes this, the FA should just ask the person to return to their assigned seat.

When I do get to fly first(rarely these days)I always leave my boarding pass on my arm rest until well after departure so the FA will have no doubt I am in my assigned seat.

aubie, me too, when i board, i announce my seat number to the FA standing by the door that greets us, and smilingly, she/he points me the way....
then i place the boading pass on the beverage tray....

Aubie: I think you are right. The moment the airlines compensate you on the spot for down-gradings - passengers who sneak up a class should be made to pay the difference http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Oh, hang on a minute - wouldn't that mean that some people with economy tickets would board, look round and see it was too busy in Econ for their liking and then move to Business happily payming the difference. What a pleasure that would make the boarding process....

Nick

One time, I had a seat in first class, confirmed. However, I boarded last and just told my wife 'Just take those seats' in the bulkhead. Apparently the lady across the row heard me, balked at the flight attendants, who then asked my wife and I for our boarding passes.

Of course since we were meant to be in first, it didn't matter. I would never sit in first unless I was meant to be there. I think the lady felt very embarrassed since she tried to make nice talk the whole flight...

Personally I don't think it's right for someone to take a first class seat if they don't belong there, but I also don't think it's right for another passenger to turn them in. It should be the FA's duty to check the manifest and reconcile. It's only a few rows of seat -- shouldn't be so difficult!

Interesting topic for sure. This March I was flying NW from AMS-JFK on a 747. The entire business class section in front of the Economy section was empty. I think they did not have that many passengers in Business and moved everybody to First since the whole sections was clear; or maybe they had seated everyone in another section upfront. It was not an equipment change (the original booking said 747 though individual configurations may be differnet). Incidentally economy was packed.

You could clearly see the empty cabin from your coach seat since the curtains were not drawn. From my seat in economy the film screen in business offered the best view of the movie!

I was wondering why NW did not move some passengers over from economy to business (just for seating); they could have kept the same food/drinks service. There were no business class passengers anyway, and a lot of passengers were connecting via AMS from flights from Asia. I personally had another 8 hour flight from DEL before the AMS-JFK connection. Would have loved the extra space and the chance to relax rather than being stacked in coach, which did not have a single empty seat. I think NW lost a chance to earn their travellers goodwill here. On AA I know of cases (3 cabin 767 on domestic routes), where all the elites are seated in the business section on coach fares, since they do not normally sell business seats on those segments.

Makes me wonder what would have happened if I had sneeaked in to snooze in the business class seat. After all it was not that I was expecting better service of anything, just a little more space on the 20 hour journey. Would it have been unethical or was it justifiable?

Even if Business is completely empty, upgrading yourself is still stealing, and anyone who intentionally does so should be prosecuted IMO.

It's like eating food at an eating establishment which is about to be thrown out (includes employees). If you didn't pay for it, you can't consume it, simple as that.

I'm sure it happens. I see it all the time. While coach may be cramped, by stealing an upgrade, you make the process inefficient. You want to fly first class, then make a few mileage runs to become an elite member.

On the other hand, I am guilty of letting my wife sit in FC in my upgraded seat while I go back in coach. I don't think that is stealing, though, because the FC seat wass rightfully mine and I just traded with someone else. I have never just had one of us sit in an empty seat.

It is not only wrong (not a mortal sin, but still wrong) but makes the blood of those who witness it boil. This seriously contributes to the tension of travelling.

On a side note, what do people feel about the morality of moving to a better seat in the same price range at a sporting event if the seatholders leave midway through?



[This message has been edited by BoSoxFan45 (edited 08-28-2000).]

SJC21SP .. I think this is why!

I suspect moving 10-20 of 270 coach to the empty J seats would have simply pissed off 250 pax and made 20 happy! (i.e. how would you have felt if they moved 20 up but not you?) That is hardly good tactics for NW!

There was no "fair" way to do it in flight.

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~ Glen ~



[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 08-28-2000).]

This is all well with US carriers who upgrade as often as the meal service, but...

What about those Asian carriers (hmm, SQ?) who will NEVER upgrade? (I'm sure SQ would rather re-route to another carrier, hence SQ paying the normal fare for that segment to the airline which the passenger is being re-routed on :eek http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I feel that, sure, no excuse when it IS possible to get loads of upgrades if you fly any more than twice per year, but when your airline upgrades as often as it crashes (ie, never, Korean being an exception), and there are no other ways of experiencing the joys of P/J other than pay the full fare (USD 14000 from NRT-LHR in F return), it's a bit different. Sure, it's still stealing (the preferred terminology I see by some), but it really frustrates me knowing that I literally have to pay about 10 times as much to fly Business, no other ways... Okay, there's the FF upgrade for miles, but hey, fly 5 returns for 1 upgrade? Hardly generous I would say. Hence super-glueing me down to a normal Y seat, at least for the time being... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif


stargold

BoSoxFan45,

I was thinking the same thing when I read about the opera seats above. At old Municipal Stadium (aka the Mistake on the Lake) you were rarely challenged if you moved "down front" to better seats http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif; however, at sold out Jacobs Field, you need to wait until the 7th inning or later to make sure the seat owners don't return http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif.

Airline seats are a different story; I second davidlee's and Jon Toner's posts...

I know it's happened on Delta before where the flight attendants didn't say anything and when the guy got off the flight they charged him the difference in price.....he was pissed. But it was his own fault http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Point taken.

However, I think the NW business is 2x2x2 or 2x3x2 in the 747s. The section had 5+ rows so there was space for atleast 30 passengers, if not more. NW could have done it before they boarded. They could have used their regular policy (elites/full fare etc if not alread done) or just be kind to people who have had a really long connection into AMS (like us http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif). After all it is a question of earning the goodwill of your flyers at no additional cost to the airline (same food/drinks as coach).

Regarding sneaking into the cabin: I like the analogy to the stadium seats. After the flight was up in the air and the section was *completely* empty (with no food/drinks service), and no curtain separating the sections, how does it matter? After all, people routinely move within coach on empty flights to get the whole middle row (heavenly on the DC 10, 5 seats to stretch on http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif). Does crossing over to an empty business section cross the line?



[This message has been edited by SJC2ISP (edited 08-28-2000).]

Recently I was doommed to coach on a 3 hour flight. I'm a big guy (6'3", 250) and was next to another large(r) than me gentleman (used loosely). He was a rather foul person, loudly cursing at the airline, and dominating the inch-wide armrest and poking me in the ribs constantly. I walked to the back of the cabin under the guise of trying to use the restroom, when in fact I was looking for 2 open seats so I could get away from this creature and not invade the personal space of another passenger.

I saw at least 5 people using the enitre middle aisle of the DC-10 to lie down and sleep. Should then then be forced to pay for 4 coach seats when they get off the plane?

I personally think airlines should ensure that first is always full. Start with revenue passengers, then go Platinum, Gold, Silver, etc. Then they should give anyone in FC the opportunity to upgrade a travelling companion.
Then they should give FC to people on bereavement fares, and full-fare coach passengers. They can keep this all hush-hush by having a standby list and upgradnig people in that priority. That way when someone was called to the podium, there would be far less of a scene than pulling them from coach.

FC costs several times what coach costs.

Why should an airline , give these away for free?

If you buy a camry from toyota and the dealer has 50 or so avalons on the lot, do you expect to be given an avalon?

Of course not.

So why, when you buy a coach ticket, should you expect a first class seat?

As for Bosox's situation about people taking up extra seats. Did you expalin the situation to a F/A and ask for assistance?

Also, if a flight is very empty, when you check in, you can ask for a seat with nobody next to you. I've done this many times.

No- I stood up most of the time by the lavatory.

Also I differ on the cost issue.

It costs the airline no more to have someone sit in a FC seat than in a coach seat.
Obviously, alchohol is an issue, but it wouldn't be an issue if they just limited the number of free drinks to everyone (like they should anyway). Say they put a 6 drink limit on a 3 hour flight. What does it cost them, $10 more for the FC passengers? Besides, 1/2 the FC passengers don't drink on a plane. I rarely do. Many people don't drink at all, or work on the plane, or have work that needs to be done when they deplane. I think the marginal cost of an FC passenger is not much higher than a coach passenger.

BoSoxFan45, I don't think Boomer is just talking about what it "costs" the airline. I think he also means cost as in "price" to you, the flying public.

Market Price often has no bearing on what it actually cost to manufacture, produce, and market a product. In the toy business we often produced a popular toy that had a high retail but that actually cost much less than a similar product with a low retail.

I think what some folks are trying to get across is this is the airline's "product" and they can price it anyway they want.

The issue being only if you take what you didn't pay for. And paying for one product, but taking another without paying the additional amount or without permission/gift, is considered by many (and myself) as theft.

I don't know. I kinda look at it the same as someone who goes in a store and switches price tags. By deceit, they are getting something of higher value than what they paid for.

I'm pretty sure the airlines consider that theft, which is why they sometimes nab offenders as they exit the plane and make 'em cough up the dough.


[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 08-28-2000).]

Actually, if you want it to be a fair analogy in the upgrade situation, then it would be a dealer who you buy a camry from every year, but that day they had 50 people buying 50 camry's, so the dealer puts you into an avalon for the price of a camry. You don't ecpect it - but it sure was nice - and makes sure you come back (and perhaps buy an avalon the next time because you like it so much).


As for this thread - I have often thought about "sneaking" up front, but just haven't for many of the reasons posted above from worrying about getting charged to thinking it was wrong. Not sure which is more overriding... It is interesting that it has hit a major chord with a lot of flyers. Now everyone is eyeing http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif those other people in F wondering if they are stealing or not. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif