Premex, thanks for clarifying my comments.
That was indeed my point.

As an example, Continental has a very liberal upgrade policy for domestic flights by elites. If there is a seat you can get it, no cost, no miles, no certificates, no limits.

International is another story. I've flown to Tel Aviv, and had a flight with 40 empty FC seats. I tried to get an upgrade as a platinum(by asking, not by just taking) and was told no. Sure I was disappointed, it's a long flight. I tried asking , when I checked in, at the President's club, at the gate, asked the lead F/A. I tried all the legal routes. Continental charges about $4000 for FC on that route. So they don't give it away for free.
One thing that enables the airlines to charge so much for International FC(besides that people will pay it) is that they don't give it away.

Yes, the marginal cost of taking someone from coach to FC is about 10 bucks. However by giving away that FC seat for free, they devalue that seat. They also devalue their elite program. One reason us elites show so much loyalty to an airline(it sure isnt the food) is the FC upgrades. When airlines start handing out those FC upgrades to just anyone, they cut into the loyalty by making elite level worth less.

It's like a rolex watch, nobody would buy a genuine rolex if they cost 500 bucks, they would loose their value. The only reason they have a value is because they are so expensive.

HHHmm... not sure what that says for my $20 Rolex I got in Times Square three years ago...... and it is still ticking!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

it shows that you bought a fake one http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Several FT'ers have mentioned the possibility of being charged the fare difference for occupying a F/C seat illegally. I never heard of it but if it was public knowledge this type of activity would stop ... cold.

I just wish I knew that the time a woman stole my legally upgraded seat for her kid and I had to sit in back!

And the moving to an open seat analogy does not hold up in the global marketplace. In some countries it is just not done and the ushers will see to that.

Jim

BoSoxFan45

Regarding a person taking up more than one coach seat - FA's have always made it clear that once the boarding door closes, everyone is welcome to spread out amongst the cabin.

Jim,
How did someone steal your FC seat? I did a search looking for your story. I got fired up just thinking about it!

DO TELL!

Premex,

Very clearly stated. I couldn't agree more.

Interesting topic.

While I would never think of sneaking into first or business when I was seated in coach, this discussion raises more questions ... what if the check-in agent forgets to collect your upgrade certificate and you don't mention it, is that stealing? Is it different than if a clerk at a store forgets to take your money when you buy say a TV?

What about if you book a reservation claiming to have a confirmed upgrade cert but then you "pay" with a less-valuable unconfirmed cert? Isn't that stealing, if not from the airline then from a passenger who might have been entitled to the upgrade ahead of you? I found it interesting (OK, disturbing) that the last time this was mentioned on a thread the outrage wasn't about doing it, but about revealing people's tricks.

Few things in life are clear cut it would seem.

I would like to clarify this point-

I think it is stealing, and I think it is wrong.

I just think it would show good faith on the part of the airline to voluntarly ensure that as many passengers travel comfortably as possible.

If you upgrade one person out of a section of three, that helps them all--the other two now have an empty seat in their pod, and that consistently rates as one of the most important things to coach passengers. (If the one who was upgraded wasn't in the middle, whoever was gets the vacated seat, IMO.)

Another article about stealth upgrading, this one from a FA's viewpoint.
http://www.salon.com/business/col/20....../index.html

(executive summary: try it, and you have a very good chance of getting caught)

Never flown other than Economy Class, I think that we should "comsume" what we paid for (no stealing!!) EXCEPT the provider wish to provide you something more (bonus?!). Just like...

FTer's should somehow get their upgrades after the "deadline" the airline can sell the F/J seat. (Think about that, for some restaurants near their close time, they will give you a bigger portion or more dishes than you paid for, my mum is a "big" customrer of a veg. food store so even at the morning she get "special treatment" with extras...

Sometimes airline(same as store) should "buy" their customer's loyality and they will be rewarded eventually.

Seems Asian store having this approach but why Asian airlines don't ? :O

I unfortunately have to travel a lot of weekends and occasionally holidays. Since most ffs don't usually fly those days on paid tickets, I have on many occasions sat up front in f alone or almost empty while coach was full! I have swapped seats with my wife's coach ticket before and we were even accidently upgraded on a free fare, which I don't think of as stealing. I wouldn't mind talking to someone else up front other than the typical ff. I'm sure all of you have enjoyed talking to the wide-eyed, "gee, leather seats!" individuals brought up front. I would only consider it stealing if someone moved up front on their own accord, without someone associated with the airline giving them permission. This would then exclude the mad rush of pax from coach to business on a three section flight when the F/A encouraged pax in coach to move up over the intercom. This happened on more than one AA MIA to SJU flight I had years ago. Although the only pax I've seen removed from f were there "accidently", I have seen pax removed forcibly from coach! A man and wife refused to sit in their newly assigned seats due to equipment change at DFW and in turn told the individuals holding the assigned seats to "Go to Hell", the F/A to "Go to Hell" and the Captain to "Go to Hell". After the Captain announced a delay, we applauded as the Federal Marshall escorted the couple off the plane. All three instances I've seen individuals forcibly removed from flights were coach passengers and everytime, it was at on AA at DFW.

No matter the class of service you still enjoy an empty seat next to you.

If you want First Class then pay for it with cash or with upgrades.

I fly AirTran a lot and they give the best of both world. ANYONE with ANY TICKET can upgrade for $25 to first class. That's reasonable and fair. Can you imagine if all the airlines did that? :-)

- Joe Leader

I wanted to say that I have been accused of being in the wrong seat on one occasion. It was when I was flying First Class on SAA last December. There were some family friends seated in business who I had seen in the lounge and then went back to talk to during the flight. Anyway I sat down in an empty seat and began chatting. A FA came by with drinks and I helped myself to orange juice. Well she took one look at me and went running off to get help. Well there was a great amount of activity from the galley as that FA explained to the head FA that I had just appeared in Business. Anyway the head FA comes back and says to me that I am not able to sit there. I like Merry know what she thinks, but am going to have a little fun at her expense. Anyway so I ask why not an she explains that this is only for Business Class passangers. I respond with the all to classic, but I just want to talk to my friend. She responds that she cannot let me spend another minute there and I MUST return. I say there is no need to get into a state and I will be happy to go back to FIRST class. I think her face nearly fell off. Needless to say that she was sorry.

On another note I always keep my BP on my armrest as much for the person sitting next to me as the FAs. It has become less of a problem over the last couple of years, but when I was younger I was questioned all the time. Now the only question is am I old enough to drink?

On a recent HP flight between EWR-CMH, I was the only passenger in first class when our A-300 took off. (Coach had about 40 pax.) When the seat belt sign was turned off, two coach passengers parted the curtain and settled into 3E&F with flight attendant approval. As we deplaned, I noticed that 3F wore an HP employee badge. I infer from their passionate embraces inflight that 3E must have been a VERY good friend.

This week's WSJ has an interesting story of somebody who on his own just moves from Y to F. Interesting that they used his name in the article! They compared this practice to going through toll booths without paying the toll and leaving a gas station without paying for gas.

globalflight, you should have told the F/A you were seated in First Class before waiting for eviction. Having a little fun at her expense (your words), was just plain rude.



[This message has been edited by JSrombough (edited 09-04-2000).]

I don't necessarily agree - if I thought, in such a situation, that the FA was making an unwarranted intrusion on me, I'd be perfectly willing to cause him/her embarrassment to teach a lesson ... and possibly even for my own amusement.

However: if I were sitting in biz and the FA had asked if I had a right to be there, I'd have corrected any misimpression right away; but as it appears that in globalflight's case there was no feeler, and the FA's (rude) action was probably triggered by the perception (youth <> business class), I think that the FA forfeited the right to a polite response.

i find it amazing the amount of 'entitlements' that are expected for whatever unjustified reason. between self help upgrades, which i have never witnessed, and the threads on the united board over who should get what bonus miles because of their on time performance this summer, i am shocked at the moaning.

we vote with our dollars, period. there is a choice, even if it is limited, even if it is with an airline you wouldn't normally fly even if they were the only one (america west for me!).

when i talked to customer service at ual, they offered vouchers and upgrade coupons all of which i denied except for a token 1-segment upgrade. when asked what i wanted, i responsed "i want my flights to be on time". being reliable is the number 1 priority, everything else is second.

no one is owed first class even if it is empty. do i blame the airlines for this? sure i do. uncomfortable seats, crammed together, marginal food, high prices, late flights, labor problems, lost bags, i could go on. there is a lot that needs to be done. i send letters to ual every so often with a suggestion based on an experience that i have, either positive or negative. maybe they implement it, maybe they don't.

point here, if you want to sit in first, request the upgrade, buy the coupons if you dont have any, ask for a comp, etc. if you dont get it, so what, at least you may get to your destination on time.

f

Quote:

"Personally I don't think it's right for someone to take a first class seat if they don't belong there, but I also don't think it's right for another passenger to turn them in. It should be the FA's duty to check the manifest and reconcile. It's only a few rows of seat -- shouldn't be so difficult!"

I disagree, and I'm afraid I have been guilty of "grassing someone up". In January this year I was travelling with BA from Montreal-Heathrow in Business class. I had a bulkhead aisle seat (10B?). As boarding was finishing three "gentlemen" who were, shall we say, in boisterous spirits boarded. The FA on the door checked their tickets, and directed them to the back of the plane. However, as they walked through the half-full club cabin one of them said "this'll do - sshhh" and they sat down quietly, two in the centre seats 1 row behind and across the aisle from me, the other at the back and across the cabin. The FA must have suspected something was going on, and she looked down the aisle from the galley. I knew that she couldn't see them from where she was standing, but I caught her eye and very slowly shook my head. She nodded, then came back and asked to see the boarding cards of the two nearest me. They asked to stay in "their" seats till after take-off, but the FA refused and they reluctantly moved. The third stayed put, till the FA did a head-count and was caught too.

OK, it's not my job to get people moved, but a) I had paid; and b) didn't fancy a 7 hour flight near them when they'd had a few more drinks. This is not to say that I've got anything against anyone (self included) having more than a few drinks. Its just the resulting behaviour can be difficult to ignore from 1 row away.

Later in the flight I walked down the plane to stretch my legs, and must admit a
smile crossed my face when I saw that economy was packed http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I'd be interested to know what other FF's would have done. Would you have ignored it and maybe paid the price for 7 hours?

[This message has been edited by bulkhead (edited 09-04-2000).]

I think a thief should be exposed. If everyone watched and reported, less would attempt and get away with it. BUT! how may have a problem upgrade thieves but not movie thieves. Nearly every flight where I have been on and you had to pay for the movie... Many pax take headphone out of personal gear and enjoy the movie. I believe this is also stealing unless there is some program that sells those headsets and airlines allow you to view (hear) the movie at no charge?!?

This is a very interesting topic.

The closest thing I did to stealing an upgrade was on a British Airways flight from JFK-LHR earlier this year. I had heard so much about the new Club World seats, my curiosity got the best of me, and I passed through the curtain and sat in the last seat to try it out, not planning on staying more than 10 minutes. Everyone in the cabin was sleeping, and the FAs were in the galley, so I had no problems.

However, the seat was too comfortable and I fell asleep. I slept for about 2 hours, and when I got up, the FA saw me. She wanted to know if I wanted a tour of the upper deck and first class, and took me around to see it. I even brought the captain his fruit plate on the upper deck, with help up the FA, of course!

After my tour, the upper deck FA invited me to stay in one of the Club World seats until the descent. I took him up and the offer, and stayed in Club, but did not take advantage of any food or drink services.

I've been reading with interest all these posts about the stealing of upgrades, particularly the part about airlines letting someone stay in biz/first, then charging their credit card for the difference in price. Now, I'm not advocating the theft of these seats, but if someone did this and they challenged the additional charges on their credit card, how could the airlines prove that the charge was justified? Wouldn't the thief have his boarding pass to "prove" what he should have been paying for? It seems like someone could contest and overturn such a charge pretty easily. Just wondering...

What are others thoughts on upgrading in advance with an airline, and the clerk forgets to ask for the upgrade cert when you check in. On a long It'l journey that can clearly be a many $1000's "benefit".

Do others here regard that as stealing?




------------------
~ Glen ~

Rail Baron,

I agree with you. Stories about charging for the difference have to be "urban myths." No airline would post a charge to a credit card without proper authorization. And if they did, the card holder could get the charge reversed in about a tenth of a second.

Bruce

Umm .. would a cardholder signature perhaps qualify? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Sure! But a signature on the original ticket purchase isn't an authorization to charge additional thousands of dollars because the passenger -- allegedly -- sat in the wrong seat. I doubt that this ever happened, but if it did, the card holder would be a fool to pay the charge.

Bruce

What if the airline said that you had two choices. Pay for what you took (i.e. - sign the credit card for the class of service in which you actually flew) or we will press criminal charges for theft? [NOTE: Threatening criminal prosecution, to gain a civil advantage, may be illegal in some jurisdictions - assume this hypothetical situation occurs somewhere where this could be asked legally]

I'm not a lawyer; I just sound like one sometimes, from years of working closely with lawyers, I suppose!

Anyway, proving that someone intentionally sat in the wrong class might be impossible if the person was never confronted. (And if the person were confronted, he or she undoubtedly would have moved.) The person would just claim that it was an innocent mistake.

In any event, the airline has an obligation to mitigate its damages. If it sees someone "stealing" services, it has to take reasonable steps to stop the loss -- such as confronting the individual. It cannot just let the loss occur, on the assumption that they can just send the person a bill afterward. Imagine if Wal-Mart let shoplifters steal whatever they wanted but just billed their credit cards (this is totally fantasy, of course). If you don't protect your property, a thief could claim that it appeared to be abandoned, and abandoned property is free for the taking.

I still maintain that no airline has ever tried to charge a passenger for sitting in the wrong seat. Does anyone have evidence to the contrary?

Bruce

I think the flight crew should and must have control of the seating without letting anyone upgrade themself.
You get what you pay for, unless are upgraded with permission.

[This message has been edited by ROADRUNNER (edited 09-06-2000).]

Sorry.

[This message has been edited by ROADRUNNER (edited 09-06-2000).]

bdshobel .. I have none personally but it was posted in a thread here only a week or so back. Not sure which board sadly, but it was someone here SAW it happen, it seems. "Please either pay for the difference between your paid coach or First seat or go back to your coach seat, and the person asked did apparenlty pay the sum asked despite loud mutterings and protest!

Someone else may recall the link. Maybe even have been Premex who posted it .. not certain.

Don't forget .. most airplanes carry paper imprinters to accept card charges for all kinds of things, and can do a paper docket, write in the ACTUAL service you are ageeing to - duty free, fare upgrade etc on the spot and once you sign it baby, its all over bar the shouting!

Maybe I missed a post pointing this out ...

It seems everyone agrees that sneaking into FC is "stealing" and objectionable ... but I have heard numerous instances of folks on this board (myself included and others who have posted to this thread I'm sure) purposely not voluteering upgrade certificates in hope that they would not be collected or surrendering different (less "valuable") upgrade certificates than were actually used to secure an upgrade. I guess some stealing is just more objectionable than other types of stealing ...

Beckles .. I raised that same question on this thread yesterday. Maybe "too close to home" for many of us?? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

------------------
~ Glen ~

Right said, Fred. Like how stealing a car is worse than stealing your neighbor's newspaper.

Or how taking the shoe kit from a hotel room is worse than taking the TV.

Is there a difference between "stealing" and "cheating?"

Not to belabor a point that has already been beaten to death, but...

If a passenger is ASKED to pay the difference between coach and first class and agrees to do so, then obviously he or she is obligated to pay (because both parties agreed to this). My earlier point was that a passenger can't be "ambushed" by a charge posted to his or her account without such an agreement. I don't believe that any airline would do this, but if one did, I don't believe that the passenger would be required to pay. At a minimum, the airline has an obligation to ask the passenger to move; if the passenger refuses to do so, then all kinds of outcomes are possible, including arrest.

Bruce

'nutz ... actually I don't see much of a difference between stealing a car and your neighbors newspaper ... the law makes a differentiation, but they're both stealing plain and simple.

The shoe kit on the other hand is a bad example ... the shoe kit is a consumable and if it is used must be replaced anyway ... a better example would be the ash tray and tv ... or a towel and the tv ...

Yesterday, on AA 2767, a 737-800 that was delivered to AA on the 19th, and bound from SJC-SNA, I was sitting in 6B. A young man and his girlfriend entered the cabin and he urged her to "just sit here." She found the temptation easy to resist and just rolled her eyes.

Just as the #1 FA was closing the door, and was thus preoccupied, he slid (solo) into 4B.
Shelley (the FA) immediately detected the intrusion and asked him, politely, what his seat number was. He knew he was busted, but he asked why he could not stay. Shelley replied that is would not be fair to those who paid. On his way to the back, he muttered "there are plenty of vacancies."

He rolled the dice.....

Shelley mentioned that he would have gotten caught even had his girlfriend agreed to sit there in the beginning as she has to match actual souls on board to the manifest. She admits that many people do get away with it because many of the #1's are not as vigilant and definitely not as bold!

It was entertaining to watch it all unfold.