SJC21SP .. I think this is why!

I suspect moving 10-20 of 270 coach to the empty J seats would have simply pissed off 250 pax and made 20 happy! (i.e. how would you have felt if they moved 20 up but not you?) That is hardly good tactics for NW!

There was no "fair" way to do it in flight.

------------------
~ Glen ~



[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 08-28-2000).]

This is all well with US carriers who upgrade as often as the meal service, but...

What about those Asian carriers (hmm, SQ?) who will NEVER upgrade? (I'm sure SQ would rather re-route to another carrier, hence SQ paying the normal fare for that segment to the airline which the passenger is being re-routed on :eek

I feel that, sure, no excuse when it IS possible to get loads of upgrades if you fly any more than twice per year, but when your airline upgrades as often as it crashes (ie, never, Korean being an exception), and there are no other ways of experiencing the joys of P/J other than pay the full fare (USD 14000 from NRT-LHR in F return), it's a bit different. Sure, it's still stealing (the preferred terminology I see by some), but it really frustrates me knowing that I literally have to pay about 10 times as much to fly Business, no other ways... Okay, there's the FF upgrade for miles, but hey, fly 5 returns for 1 upgrade? Hardly generous I would say. Hence super-glueing me down to a normal Y seat, at least for the time being...


stargold

BoSoxFan45,

I was thinking the same thing when I read about the opera seats above. At old Municipal Stadium (aka the Mistake on the Lake) you were rarely challenged if you moved "down front" to better seats ; however, at sold out Jacobs Field, you need to wait until the 7th inning or later to make sure the seat owners don't return .

Airline seats are a different story; I second davidlee's and Jon Toner's posts...

I know it's happened on Delta before where the flight attendants didn't say anything and when the guy got off the flight they charged him the difference in price.....he was pissed. But it was his own fault

Point taken.

However, I think the NW business is 2x2x2 or 2x3x2 in the 747s. The section had 5+ rows so there was space for atleast 30 passengers, if not more. NW could have done it before they boarded. They could have used their regular policy (elites/full fare etc if not alread done) or just be kind to people who have had a really long connection into AMS (like us ). After all it is a question of earning the goodwill of your flyers at no additional cost to the airline (same food/drinks as coach).

Regarding sneaking into the cabin: I like the analogy to the stadium seats. After the flight was up in the air and the section was *completely* empty (with no food/drinks service), and no curtain separating the sections, how does it matter? After all, people routinely move within coach on empty flights to get the whole middle row (heavenly on the DC 10, 5 seats to stretch on ). Does crossing over to an empty business section cross the line?



[This message has been edited by SJC2ISP (edited 08-28-2000).]

Recently I was doommed to coach on a 3 hour flight. I'm a big guy (6'3", 250) and was next to another large(r) than me gentleman (used loosely). He was a rather foul person, loudly cursing at the airline, and dominating the inch-wide armrest and poking me in the ribs constantly. I walked to the back of the cabin under the guise of trying to use the restroom, when in fact I was looking for 2 open seats so I could get away from this creature and not invade the personal space of another passenger.

I saw at least 5 people using the enitre middle aisle of the DC-10 to lie down and sleep. Should then then be forced to pay for 4 coach seats when they get off the plane?

I personally think airlines should ensure that first is always full. Start with revenue passengers, then go Platinum, Gold, Silver, etc. Then they should give anyone in FC the opportunity to upgrade a travelling companion.
Then they should give FC to people on bereavement fares, and full-fare coach passengers. They can keep this all hush-hush by having a standby list and upgradnig people in that priority. That way when someone was called to the podium, there would be far less of a scene than pulling them from coach.

FC costs several times what coach costs.

Why should an airline , give these away for free?

If you buy a camry from toyota and the dealer has 50 or so avalons on the lot, do you expect to be given an avalon?

Of course not.

So why, when you buy a coach ticket, should you expect a first class seat?

As for Bosox's situation about people taking up extra seats. Did you expalin the situation to a F/A and ask for assistance?

Also, if a flight is very empty, when you check in, you can ask for a seat with nobody next to you. I've done this many times.

No- I stood up most of the time by the lavatory.

Also I differ on the cost issue.

It costs the airline no more to have someone sit in a FC seat than in a coach seat.
Obviously, alchohol is an issue, but it wouldn't be an issue if they just limited the number of free drinks to everyone (like they should anyway). Say they put a 6 drink limit on a 3 hour flight. What does it cost them, $10 more for the FC passengers? Besides, 1/2 the FC passengers don't drink on a plane. I rarely do. Many people don't drink at all, or work on the plane, or have work that needs to be done when they deplane. I think the marginal cost of an FC passenger is not much higher than a coach passenger.

BoSoxFan45, I don't think Boomer is just talking about what it "costs" the airline. I think he also means cost as in "price" to you, the flying public.

Market Price often has no bearing on what it actually cost to manufacture, produce, and market a product. In the toy business we often produced a popular toy that had a high retail but that actually cost much less than a similar product with a low retail.

I think what some folks are trying to get across is this is the airline's "product" and they can price it anyway they want.

The issue being only if you take what you didn't pay for. And paying for one product, but taking another without paying the additional amount or without permission/gift, is considered by many (and myself) as theft.

I don't know. I kinda look at it the same as someone who goes in a store and switches price tags. By deceit, they are getting something of higher value than what they paid for.

I'm pretty sure the airlines consider that theft, which is why they sometimes nab offenders as they exit the plane and make 'em cough up the dough.


[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 08-28-2000).]

Actually, if you want it to be a fair analogy in the upgrade situation, then it would be a dealer who you buy a camry from every year, but that day they had 50 people buying 50 camry's, so the dealer puts you into an avalon for the price of a camry. You don't ecpect it - but it sure was nice - and makes sure you come back (and perhaps buy an avalon the next time because you like it so much).


As for this thread - I have often thought about "sneaking" up front, but just haven't for many of the reasons posted above from worrying about getting charged to thinking it was wrong. Not sure which is more overriding... It is interesting that it has hit a major chord with a lot of flyers. Now everyone is eyeing those other people in F wondering if they are stealing or not.

Premex, thanks for clarifying my comments.
That was indeed my point.

As an example, Continental has a very liberal upgrade policy for domestic flights by elites. If there is a seat you can get it, no cost, no miles, no certificates, no limits.

International is another story. I've flown to Tel Aviv, and had a flight with 40 empty FC seats. I tried to get an upgrade as a platinum(by asking, not by just taking) and was told no. Sure I was disappointed, it's a long flight. I tried asking , when I checked in, at the President's club, at the gate, asked the lead F/A. I tried all the legal routes. Continental charges about $4000 for FC on that route. So they don't give it away for free.
One thing that enables the airlines to charge so much for International FC(besides that people will pay it) is that they don't give it away.

Yes, the marginal cost of taking someone from coach to FC is about 10 bucks. However by giving away that FC seat for free, they devalue that seat. They also devalue their elite program. One reason us elites show so much loyalty to an airline(it sure isnt the food) is the FC upgrades. When airlines start handing out those FC upgrades to just anyone, they cut into the loyalty by making elite level worth less.

It's like a rolex watch, nobody would buy a genuine rolex if they cost 500 bucks, they would loose their value. The only reason they have a value is because they are so expensive.

HHHmm... not sure what that says for my $20 Rolex I got in Times Square three years ago...... and it is still ticking!!

it shows that you bought a fake one

Several FT'ers have mentioned the possibility of being charged the fare difference for occupying a F/C seat illegally. I never heard of it but if it was public knowledge this type of activity would stop ... cold.

I just wish I knew that the time a woman stole my legally upgraded seat for her kid and I had to sit in back!

And the moving to an open seat analogy does not hold up in the global marketplace. In some countries it is just not done and the ushers will see to that.

Jim

BoSoxFan45

Regarding a person taking up more than one coach seat - FA's have always made it clear that once the boarding door closes, everyone is welcome to spread out amongst the cabin.