Motnot, I can't speak to FC because I never fly it but as far as Biz class goes there seem to be lots of award travelers in the cabin and lounges at least on the transatlantic routes. Maybe they are all very frequently fliers and would be travelling with award travel anyway based on the revenue model but I am not sure.

Things change at the margins and my point was that if you could take maybe 10-20% of people who now use biz class because of non revenue miles and relegate them to coach, then coach would most likely improve and it would make things less crowded for the revenue based FF. Possibly the outcome would just be a more clear cut version of what we already have. Some airlines that are known for low cost and just pack everyone in and other airlines that are know for superior coach service and comfort but who charge more. I suppose the main outcome might be that airlines like AA and UA for example would substantially improve their coach service whilst offering some extra perks to the very frequent fliers that they have even more of an incentive to keep.

We are in complete agreement on one thing, it will never happen because of prisoner's dilemma logic. In fact if it ever happened on an industry wide basis you can bet that there would be all sorts of lawsuits alleging collusion.

As far as individual airlines are concerned, I can only offer experience on BA, as they are the only airline I have flown often enough to notice a change in standards over the years.
Firstly, it must be said that the standards in Club World have improved (as with many business classes, I would imagine). However, the standards in World Traveller certainly haven't (as with many airlines' coach classes, I would imagine). Now I believe that this is SOLELY due to the current scheme of having elite frequent fliers (which is more often than not bred by premium fare-paying customers).
BA have put all their effort into taking care of the gold (and to some extent silver) elite flyers these days, as they know that this is where the money lies. Providing these passengers with 'extra service ' should not be at the expense of the discounted budget travellers. Those who aren't in the elite tiers and those on discounted tickets are even the first to be bumped off an overbooked flight...logic would suggest that bumping should occur depending on time of arrival at check-in and regardless of tier status. It is an absolute disgrace that non-elite tier or non-premium class passengers are not made to feel valued at all nowadays and utterly shameful that the British class system plays such an enormous role in BA's attitudes to customer service.


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[This message has been edited by salt (edited 08-05-2000).]

Hi

If indeed the genuine very frequent flyer is getting short changed because people with credit card points etc are getting upgraded then why has noone started a first class only airline?

It seems to me that if there is a reasonable size population of very frequent flyers prepared to pay a premium to get away from the riff-raff surely someone could have started an airline to cater exclusively to their needs, at least on major trunk routes eg New York to Los Angeles?

This would mean a smaller jet would be outfitted exclusively with first class seating and a suitable complement of very attentive cabin crew. No riff raff to upgrade and highly personal service all the way through. With the USA's population I would have thought somebody would cater to this market exclusively.

cheers Peter

ffhound: As many U.S.-based fliers on this board will, no doubt, remember, this was tried, about 15 years ago. It was called MGM Grand. The model was almost exactly as you describe. It did not succeed: one of the reasons usually cited was the lack of an effective, linked, frequent flyer program!

RichG

That's easily fixed.

Simply start the airline as I described above and then introduce a frequent flyer program. As the only passengers would be first class ones there would be no chance of economy passengers being upgraded. As for filling seats it would just be a question of finding the correct redemption rate level.

By the way I had a look on the web and found the following photo for those so interested.
http://www.photovault.com/Link/Techn.../TAFV09P11_07B

cheers Peter


[This message has been edited by ffhound (edited 08-06-2000).]

Don't you read the news? Legend Airlines has finally gotten off the ground with DAL-LAX and DAL-IAD flights (LAX-IAD with the obvious change in DAL). AA tried to stop them but were unsuccessful, so now AA has jumped in with 56 seat F100's between LAX and DAL.

You get Delta miles on Legend, so they did solve the problem of a FF program.

It's probably not going to work, as the fares are now the same as AA mainline minus $3 PFC difference. That is, you can fly LAX-DAL for $266 r/t if you plan in advance and stay over Saturday night. I don't think those fares is what Legend had in mind.

[This message has been edited by JSrombough (edited 08-06-2000).]

I don't think FF programs or deregulation has anything to do with the quality of service on the airlines. The airlines are businesses, and their objective is to make money.

With the a robust economy, many more people are flying now. The load factors are at an all-time high, so there is no incentive to offer better service. Casual flyers will try to find the lowest fare. Business flyers will usually pay a higher fare, as they usually do not have the opportunity to buy 21 days (or 14,7,...) in advance.

When there is more money to be made, and more competition, the service and amenities will increase. For example, look at transatlantic business class over the past ten years. Seating, meals, and entertainment have all been improved dramatically. The prices have also gone up about 60%.

When the economy falls off, the load factors will fall, prices will fall some, and the airlines will add leg room, better meals, ... to entice people to use their product.

Complaints from customers do not amount to much unless it affects the bottom line.

Except for maybe the Peanut fares.

MGM was grand....too bad it did not work. There planes were posh and service was excellent...
I say we all just try and get along and the rest will take care of itself.

My first few flying experiences were in the late 70s. I seem to recall crappy food and cramped seating in economy. I remember in 1981 just about the most cramped plane I was ever on ... a BA 747. I remember being served frozen fried chicken on CO (with ice crystals). I remember chaos because of DC10 groundings. I was in my teens, and there were no FF programs. I remember standing in lines to get a little sticker off of a seatmap. I remember turbulance being a lot worse flying through rather than just around storms.

That said, some recent travels have been most unpleasant. But if you REALLY look back, other than perhaps the very early days of luxury air travel, or you were a frequent F passenger in the pre-FF days, your earlier travels were no luxury funfilled ride in the park.

Why not a combination of Revenue and ACTUAL MILES (NOT American AIr's model where everything counts towards status.)

Actual Miles gets you the elite
Revenue gets you an upper tier elite and a higher percentage of upgrades and perks.

If we go to just a revenue based elite program there probably will be a small number of flyers in First/business and those of us who work for companies where the CHEAPEST ticket is the bottom stuck in coach. I know my company would rather put me in the cheapest seat possible and NOT pay four figures for a business/first ticket.

And coach is already overcrowded.

So FF programs are only a small percentage of the problem with the airlines.

Deregulation is the biggest reason for the decline in service.

Eastbay1k
Western Airlines and PSA offered free champagne in coach on flights from LAX to SFO. PSA offered two rows of seats that faced each other in the back with plenty of leg room and, at that time, one could smoke in the back.

When Alaska came in, on SEATAC flights they offered Steak and eggs for breakfast in F and sausage and eggs in coach. Sweet roll and fruits, juice and coffee! Free wine in coach. Almost always a empty row (2 or 3 seats) available. When the flight was a one stop, they offered 2 breakfasts! Dinner was alway a choice F and C. F was usually steak Diane, filet or fish. Dessert was usually cheese cake. A prayer card was always on the tray...do with it as you wished.

First class on the 747's , domestic, ment the food cart with prime rib cut before your eyes (only once, upgraded as a young man in a suit with an upgrade and a costly coach ticket).

That's my memory.

Ok ... I did exclude Alaska Airlines from my memory, and I was an avid AS flyer... (On the other hand, I recall that last-min rountrips SFO/SEA were $800 before competition in the route). Well, there you have it. Competition/deregulation caused the decline in service!

I remember paying $39 rt on PSA and Western LAX SFO, special and more often $59. By the time AS came along prices were in the low $100's and SEATAC in the mid 100's (350-550) most of the time. In the early 90's my top payment (coach, then upgraded) was $1200 LAX to SEATAC. 2 days notice, no Saturday, no fare war. Most of the time during the late 80's, early 90's the fare was in the $700 area. Triple miles, bonus status miles, hotel and car got me to over 850,000 miles. Took a cruise on Holland America, in a junior suite, to Alaska with ff points!

If all Frequent Flyer programs were equal, they would cease to exist!!! Period, case closed, end of story!

It's almost happened with car rental programs.