Is this permitted?
Oct 10, 1999 | 11:55 pm
#1
Original Poster
Company Representative - Air Canada
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Canada
Posts: 24,224
Is this permitted?
I have a plan for the following trip, is this allowable?
Oct 16 YYZ - YYC
Oct 16 YYC - YYZ - YUL
Oct 18 YUL - YYC
Oct 18 YYC - YYZ
I am only going through YYZ as a connection. The reason for returning to YYC before back to YYZ is just to complete the roundtrip from the Oct 16 trip from YYC - YUL because buying a one way ticket is quite expensive. I am trying to do this itenary because I just need to meet with a client for a couple hours in YYC and then another one in YUL so I don't want to stay in YYC. Is the airline going to bust me for going through/back to YYZ before completing the first roundtrip?
Let me know if this is too confusing, I'll reworded again. Seems like the airline couldn't figure it out when I ask them, they keep telling me it's a circle trip and I can't do it. If I do, I will book this as two seperate ticket, is this a better idea?
Regards,
Empress
Oct 16 YYZ - YYC
Oct 16 YYC - YYZ - YUL
Oct 18 YUL - YYC
Oct 18 YYC - YYZ
I am only going through YYZ as a connection. The reason for returning to YYC before back to YYZ is just to complete the roundtrip from the Oct 16 trip from YYC - YUL because buying a one way ticket is quite expensive. I am trying to do this itenary because I just need to meet with a client for a couple hours in YYC and then another one in YUL so I don't want to stay in YYC. Is the airline going to bust me for going through/back to YYZ before completing the first roundtrip?
Let me know if this is too confusing, I'll reworded again. Seems like the airline couldn't figure it out when I ask them, they keep telling me it's a circle trip and I can't do it. If I do, I will book this as two seperate ticket, is this a better idea?
Regards,
Empress
Oct 11, 1999 | 12:29 am
#2
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: YVR
Programs: ACSEMM QRGold SPGLifetimePlat FairmontPlat | TalkBoard Founding Member
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I usually book such itineraries as 2 (or more) tickets to save the hassle. Sometimes though it gets more expensive to split it into multiple tickets.
Dorian
Dorian
Oct 11, 1999 | 12:42 am
#3
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Savannah, MO USA
Posts: 33
Interesting topic, got me thinking...
I bought two roundtrips, one CID-ORD to Oct. 9 back Oct. 11. The other ORD-CID, to Oct. 9 back Oct. 11. Flew and recieved credit for both flights on Oct. 9, flying the other two here in a few hours.
I was thinking that as long as I fly all the segments (which was the point anyway, just to get four segments and sale price was really cheap!) I am not reaking any rules??
I know the airlines were cracking down on people buying two and using them without flying all the segments to cheapen fares, but I will be flying all the segments...
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
I bought two roundtrips, one CID-ORD to Oct. 9 back Oct. 11. The other ORD-CID, to Oct. 9 back Oct. 11. Flew and recieved credit for both flights on Oct. 9, flying the other two here in a few hours.
I was thinking that as long as I fly all the segments (which was the point anyway, just to get four segments and sale price was really cheap!) I am not reaking any rules??
I know the airlines were cracking down on people buying two and using them without flying all the segments to cheapen fares, but I will be flying all the segments...
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Oct 11, 1999 | 2:14 am
#4
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: YVR
Programs: ACSEMM QRGold SPGLifetimePlat FairmontPlat | TalkBoard Founding Member
Posts: 8,969
Airlines try and not permit overlapping itineraries as it results in lost revenue.
If you are often fly to the same location for only a day or two you can take advantage of Saturday stays and one week stays to get lower fares.
I have been stopped from doing this once....so I just booked 2 different carriers....all the miles to one account though!
Dorian
If you are often fly to the same location for only a day or two you can take advantage of Saturday stays and one week stays to get lower fares.
I have been stopped from doing this once....so I just booked 2 different carriers....all the miles to one account though!
Dorian
Oct 11, 1999 | 8:22 am
#5
Join Date: May 1999
Location: New York City
Programs: UA MM-1P, Hilton Life Diamond, Marriot Life Gold, ICH Spire
Posts: 4,080
upupaway's itinerary is two nested roundtrips. The airlines will not be happy if they notice it, but, as Dorian stated, you can just use two different airlines.
Empress' itinerary seems to be a roundtrip (YYZ-YYC-YYZ), plus a circle trip (YYZ-YUL-YYC-YYZ). Your most likely shot at reducing the cost will be if you can arrange the stop in YYC on Oct 18 as a connection. Then the circle trip becomes a roundtrip YYZ-YUL-xYYC-YYZ.
Empress' itinerary seems to be a roundtrip (YYZ-YYC-YYZ), plus a circle trip (YYZ-YUL-YYC-YYZ). Your most likely shot at reducing the cost will be if you can arrange the stop in YYC on Oct 18 as a connection. Then the circle trip becomes a roundtrip YYZ-YUL-xYYC-YYZ.
Oct 11, 1999 | 9:52 am
#6
In Memoriam
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Seattle
Programs: Ephesians 4:31-32
Posts: 10,690
Ok let's say you live in LA and have a meeting every Wednesday in SanFrancisco.
Somehow, by train, car, one-way ticket, whatever, you manage to get to SFO. Then you start buying tickets like this:
Oct 20-3 PM SFO/LAX - Oct 27 LAX/SFO 8 AM
Oct 27-3 PM SFO/LAX - Nov 3 LAX/SFO 8 AM
Nov 3-3 PM SFO/LAX - Nov 10 LAX/SFO 8 AM
Nov 10-3 PM SFO/LAX - Nov 17 LAX/SFO 8 AM
Is there anything wrong with this? You have a Sat stay and it is just one cheap ticket after another. No nesting, no back to back. Is there a rule that says you can fly on two different tickets on the same day?
Of course you have to buy the initial expensive one-way ticket, but overtime that will prorated to practically nothing.
Somehow, by train, car, one-way ticket, whatever, you manage to get to SFO. Then you start buying tickets like this:
Oct 20-3 PM SFO/LAX - Oct 27 LAX/SFO 8 AM
Oct 27-3 PM SFO/LAX - Nov 3 LAX/SFO 8 AM
Nov 3-3 PM SFO/LAX - Nov 10 LAX/SFO 8 AM
Nov 10-3 PM SFO/LAX - Nov 17 LAX/SFO 8 AM
Is there anything wrong with this? You have a Sat stay and it is just one cheap ticket after another. No nesting, no back to back. Is there a rule that says you can fly on two different tickets on the same day?
Of course you have to buy the initial expensive one-way ticket, but overtime that will prorated to practically nothing.
Oct 11, 1999 | 11:17 am
#7
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: YVR
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Posts: 8,969
That SFO itinerary is ofcourse okay. What I have tried (and done) is this:
Ticket #1:
Oct. 15 FRA-YYZ
Oct. 26 YYZ-FRA
Ticket #2:
Oct. 17 YYZ-FRA
Oct. 24 FRA-YYZ
This gives me 2 one day meetings at YYZ. It also gives me a Saturday stay and a savings of around CAN$2000 (biz. class) per ticket. Totally illegal itineraries, though I don't REALLY know illegal to whom?!
Dorian!
Ticket #1:
Oct. 15 FRA-YYZ
Oct. 26 YYZ-FRA
Ticket #2:
Oct. 17 YYZ-FRA
Oct. 24 FRA-YYZ
This gives me 2 one day meetings at YYZ. It also gives me a Saturday stay and a savings of around CAN$2000 (biz. class) per ticket. Totally illegal itineraries, though I don't REALLY know illegal to whom?!
Dorian!
Oct 11, 1999 | 1:48 pm
#9
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: (SNA) Orange County, California USA
Posts: 3,641
Punki, Not Allowed! Sorry to rain on your parade, (I'm just the messenger). 
Those are indeed, Back-To-Back tickets in spite of your creative packaging. You are using portions of two roundtrip tickets to circumvent their "rules." Using United Airlines as an example:
The following is from 1Travel.com's "Rules Of The Air, know all the rules before you take off!"
Years ago I was advised by my travel professional that they would no longer issue back-to-back tickets to me. They informed me they could be liable (for the difference) and would naturally have to charge my account. Prior to that time I hadn't even realized that it was against any rules. I simply thought I was being a savvy and prudent consumer. Some of my high school teachers would have been proud of me! I still try to be, though, every chance I get.
Here are some interesting links:
1.travel.com: Rules Of The Air
http://www.onetravel.com/rules/rules.cfm
Passenger Rights.Com
https://www.passengerrights.com/
Best Fares: Consumer Complaint Links To Make Your Voice Heard On Airline Issues http://www.bestfares.com/member/desk.../10012751L.asp
Travel Rights Galore
http://ww2.blp.net/blpnet/article.html?article_id=13236
[This message has been edited by MRLIMO (edited 10-11-1999).]
Those are indeed, Back-To-Back tickets in spite of your creative packaging. You are using portions of two roundtrip tickets to circumvent their "rules." Using United Airlines as an example:
United Airlines
Tickets: Back-To-Back -- Rule 100C
Use of coupons from two or more tickets issued at round trip fares for the purpose of circumventing applicable tariff rules (such as advance purchase / minimum stay requirement) is not permitted.
United agents and authorized travel agents are prohibited from issuing tickets, commonly referred to as "back to back ticketing", under such circumstances when there is obvious intent to abuse and/or misuse restricted round trip fares.
Agents found issuing such tickets may be liable for the difference between the fare paid and the fare for transportation used. United Airlines has the right to deny transportation to passengers found utilizing tickets in this manner unless the difference between the fare paid and the fare for the transportation used is collected.
Rule 100 C / 22nd revised page UA-7 / May 9, 1996
Tickets: Back-To-Back -- Rule 100C
Use of coupons from two or more tickets issued at round trip fares for the purpose of circumventing applicable tariff rules (such as advance purchase / minimum stay requirement) is not permitted.
United agents and authorized travel agents are prohibited from issuing tickets, commonly referred to as "back to back ticketing", under such circumstances when there is obvious intent to abuse and/or misuse restricted round trip fares.
Agents found issuing such tickets may be liable for the difference between the fare paid and the fare for transportation used. United Airlines has the right to deny transportation to passengers found utilizing tickets in this manner unless the difference between the fare paid and the fare for the transportation used is collected.
Rule 100 C / 22nd revised page UA-7 / May 9, 1996
If United Airlines determines that you have purchased back-to-back tickets, they have the right to deny you boarding unless you pay additional money (the amount you saved).
If you purchase back-to-back tickets and are not stopped at the airport, United Airlines has another option. They can bill your travel agent. The business agreement between your travel agent and United Airlines requires your travel agent to abide by all United Airlines ticketing rules. Writing back-to-back tickets is a violation of Uniteds ticketing rules and subjects your travel agent to a debit for the fare difference - the amount you saved. This debit, of course, will be passed on to you.
If you purchase back-to-back tickets and are not stopped at the airport, United Airlines has another option. They can bill your travel agent. The business agreement between your travel agent and United Airlines requires your travel agent to abide by all United Airlines ticketing rules. Writing back-to-back tickets is a violation of Uniteds ticketing rules and subjects your travel agent to a debit for the fare difference - the amount you saved. This debit, of course, will be passed on to you.
Here are some interesting links:
1.travel.com: Rules Of The Air
http://www.onetravel.com/rules/rules.cfm
Passenger Rights.Com
https://www.passengerrights.com/
Best Fares: Consumer Complaint Links To Make Your Voice Heard On Airline Issues http://www.bestfares.com/member/desk.../10012751L.asp
Travel Rights Galore
http://ww2.blp.net/blpnet/article.html?article_id=13236
[This message has been edited by MRLIMO (edited 10-11-1999).]
Oct 11, 1999 | 3:29 pm
#10
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Manassas VA
Posts: 145
My travel agent will not allow me to nest tickets, but had no problem with allowing me to book a 1 way, a bunch of RT's, and a 1 way at the end.
Most of the folks at my company do that when traveling to a client for more than 1 month.
Tom
Most of the folks at my company do that when traveling to a client for more than 1 month.
Tom
Oct 11, 1999 | 3:54 pm
#11
Join Date: May 1999
Location: New York City
Programs: UA MM-1P, Hilton Life Diamond, Marriot Life Gold, ICH Spire
Posts: 4,080
Here is the problem as I see it:
Ticketing rules for specific fares are objective and easy to understand, as regards minimum and maximum stays, days of week, etc. In fact, it would otherwise be very hard to implement ticketing and fare calculation by computer!
Rules such as United's "Back-to-Back Ticketing" rule quoted above are vague and subjective.
IMHO, the airline can certainly write the rules so as to maximize its revenue, but the passenger, by the same token, ought to be able to use the same rules so as to minimize his or her expenditure. Otherwise the following could occur:
Let's say you were about to spend a month at a client location, with a short trip back home in the middle to pick up the mail, save your marriage, whatever. If you planned this beforehand, you might book something like the following:
1 Oct LGA-ORD
13 Oct ORD-LGA
14 Oct LGA-ORD
29 Oct ORD-LGA
So you have two round trips, both at discount fares. But what would you think if the airline looked at this and said you're trying to evade the fare rules, and the only discount round trip allowed is 1 Oct/29 Oct, with the short trip home in the middle of the month having to be ORD-LGA-ORD, at full fare? Would anybody tolerate this? I don't think so.
Ticketing rules for specific fares are objective and easy to understand, as regards minimum and maximum stays, days of week, etc. In fact, it would otherwise be very hard to implement ticketing and fare calculation by computer!
Rules such as United's "Back-to-Back Ticketing" rule quoted above are vague and subjective.
IMHO, the airline can certainly write the rules so as to maximize its revenue, but the passenger, by the same token, ought to be able to use the same rules so as to minimize his or her expenditure. Otherwise the following could occur:
Let's say you were about to spend a month at a client location, with a short trip back home in the middle to pick up the mail, save your marriage, whatever. If you planned this beforehand, you might book something like the following:
1 Oct LGA-ORD
13 Oct ORD-LGA
14 Oct LGA-ORD
29 Oct ORD-LGA
So you have two round trips, both at discount fares. But what would you think if the airline looked at this and said you're trying to evade the fare rules, and the only discount round trip allowed is 1 Oct/29 Oct, with the short trip home in the middle of the month having to be ORD-LGA-ORD, at full fare? Would anybody tolerate this? I don't think so.
Oct 11, 1999 | 4:44 pm
#12
In Memoriam
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Seattle
Programs: Ephesians 4:31-32
Posts: 10,690
How do you figure they are back to back. On my first ticket I am flying to LAX and staying there a week. Then I fly back to SFO.
With my second ticket new ticket I fly to LAX and stay there for a week. Then I fly back to SFO.
With a third brand new ticket I fly to LAX again and stay there for a week.
And so on and so on. In each instance I use the whole round-trip ticket exactly as booked and comply precisely with the airlines rules. Unless the airline can come up with a way to limit the time between separate roundtrips, which of course is ridiculous and counterproductive and impossible, I believe this is perfectly "legal" whatever that means.
If you don't think so, please state clearly and precisely why not. (In your own words please, and prefereably not too many of them.)
I was a blonde for a long time and developed difficulties comprehending long technical explanations.
With my second ticket new ticket I fly to LAX and stay there for a week. Then I fly back to SFO.
With a third brand new ticket I fly to LAX again and stay there for a week.
And so on and so on. In each instance I use the whole round-trip ticket exactly as booked and comply precisely with the airlines rules. Unless the airline can come up with a way to limit the time between separate roundtrips, which of course is ridiculous and counterproductive and impossible, I believe this is perfectly "legal" whatever that means.
If you don't think so, please state clearly and precisely why not. (In your own words please, and prefereably not too many of them.)
I was a blonde for a long time and developed difficulties comprehending long technical explanations.
Oct 11, 1999 | 8:50 pm
#13
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: (SNA) Orange County, California USA
Posts: 3,641
Punki, although there are various ways that sets of roundtrip tickets become back-to-back from the airline's point of view; I will use your ticketing example, flying all segments exactly as booked, and will try my best to illustrate the back-to-back transformation.
Using your example, each roundtrip ticket, in and of itself, would create no problem when flown as booked if no other tickets were involved. For a passenger to be violating the airline's back-to-back rules, at least an additional ticket must be booked, as in your example. The airlines feel it is within their purview and their prerogative to look beyond just a single roundtrip ticket and play judge and jury to your intent. If the airline feels you are flying, using two or more roundtrip tickets to avoid any of their tariff rules, (Saturday night stay, for example) they consider that back-to-back ticketing. In other words, they do not treat each roundtrip ticket by itself. They make a combined assessment of all your tickets and reach their conclusions.
By applying their back-to-back interpretation on our ticket purchases, they have, in your words, "come up with a way to limit the time between separate roundtrips." I only wish I had the resources to fight them on this and a few other ticketing rules. A class action lawsuit, perhaps??? Just my perspective!
[This message has been edited by MRLIMO (edited 10-11-1999).]
Using your example, each roundtrip ticket, in and of itself, would create no problem when flown as booked if no other tickets were involved. For a passenger to be violating the airline's back-to-back rules, at least an additional ticket must be booked, as in your example. The airlines feel it is within their purview and their prerogative to look beyond just a single roundtrip ticket and play judge and jury to your intent. If the airline feels you are flying, using two or more roundtrip tickets to avoid any of their tariff rules, (Saturday night stay, for example) they consider that back-to-back ticketing. In other words, they do not treat each roundtrip ticket by itself. They make a combined assessment of all your tickets and reach their conclusions.
By applying their back-to-back interpretation on our ticket purchases, they have, in your words, "come up with a way to limit the time between separate roundtrips." I only wish I had the resources to fight them on this and a few other ticketing rules. A class action lawsuit, perhaps??? Just my perspective!
[This message has been edited by MRLIMO (edited 10-11-1999).]
Oct 11, 1999 | 9:40 pm
#15
In Memoriam
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Seattle
Programs: Ephesians 4:31-32
Posts: 10,690
newself
To the business at hand? Ok let's say I am a dancer who lives in LA and works in SFO. My club is open Monday through Saturday so I fly to SFO every Monday morning to get to work, work through Saturday and then fly back home Sunday morning for a well deserved day off. What's the problem? And what's the difference between this and my first example.
If you aren't using all the ticket, as written, maybe they would have a case. But if you just happen to be buying tickets and using them one after another to live your life the way you see fit (albeit a little differently than the Monday - Friday routine they think is the "norm") they would be very hard pressed to establish a case.
Actually it might be fun to see them try. When one started explaining one's alternative life style which substantiated these odd choices of flight days, I could see a whole lot of possibilities that the airlines just might get charged with violation of civil rights by discriminating against people who just don't happen to fit into their picture of normal.
Why would I be treated any differently than the guy who flies out Sunday night and then flies back Friday night? Why aren't his tickets back to back? Are they disciminating against me because I am a dancer? Because I am a woman? Are they even sure I am a woman? Because I dance in San Francisco? Because I am 110 (although I know some of you think that is a conservative number)?
Tsk, tsk you nasty old airlines. You just take my money, maintain your aircraft and keep your 737 noses out of my personal business.
To the business at hand? Ok let's say I am a dancer who lives in LA and works in SFO. My club is open Monday through Saturday so I fly to SFO every Monday morning to get to work, work through Saturday and then fly back home Sunday morning for a well deserved day off. What's the problem? And what's the difference between this and my first example.
If you aren't using all the ticket, as written, maybe they would have a case. But if you just happen to be buying tickets and using them one after another to live your life the way you see fit (albeit a little differently than the Monday - Friday routine they think is the "norm") they would be very hard pressed to establish a case.
Actually it might be fun to see them try. When one started explaining one's alternative life style which substantiated these odd choices of flight days, I could see a whole lot of possibilities that the airlines just might get charged with violation of civil rights by discriminating against people who just don't happen to fit into their picture of normal.
Why would I be treated any differently than the guy who flies out Sunday night and then flies back Friday night? Why aren't his tickets back to back? Are they disciminating against me because I am a dancer? Because I am a woman? Are they even sure I am a woman? Because I dance in San Francisco? Because I am 110 (although I know some of you think that is a conservative number)?
Tsk, tsk you nasty old airlines. You just take my money, maintain your aircraft and keep your 737 noses out of my personal business.