I thought this might spark an interesting discussion.

[PLEASE keep in mind the following commentary is a general one -- there always are exceptions.]

In the U.S. business world, there is a phrase illustrating the paucity of women in senior executive positions (e.g., CEO, President, etc.) -- this would be 'the glass ceiling.' A woman can see through it yet doesn't often break through it and, because it is transparent, many folk would have us believe it doesn't exist. As evidence of the phrase's veracity, this statistic usually is cited: only two companies on the Fortune 500 list sport female CEOs (this is not to say we're poor sports, heh-heh).

The lengthy preamble above serves as introduction to what I call 'the flying glass ceiling' -- that is, the paucity of women in first class on U.S. domestic flights. I believe the two ceilings are related, on the following grounds.

First, however, the exceptions: most Hawaii flights are split fairly evenly between the genders (vacationing couples). Red-eye flights seem often to have a number of women in First (these seats not being so hotly contested). Flights before and after major holidays usually see a more even gender distribution in First.

1. Many occupants of domestic US first class cabins are there as a consequence of upgrades attained through FF programs (either miles or coupons). Because the latter typically are allocated on the basis of mileage status, it is more likely such seats go to males because men typically have higher mileage status. Whilst it is true I lack concrete evidence of this I think we all know intuitively this is true.

2. The Flying Glass Ceiling is a corollary of the Glass Ceiling in this way: many US companies typically fund first-class (even at discounted corporate) rates only for the most senior executives . . . who are overwhelming male.

Annecdotal backup: Herewith gender counts on my last six non-holiday, non-red-eye domestic US flights:

SFO-LAX: eight seats in first class; all men.
TPA-IAD: 24 seats in first class; three women, 21 men
IAD-SJC: 12 first class seats; one woman (moi), 11 men
TPA-DEN: 12 first class seats; two women, ten men
DEN-SFO: 12 first class seats; three women, nine men
LAX-SFO: eight seats in first class; one woman (not moi), 7 men

My last two red-eye LAX-TPA flights: a) 12 seats in first with 5 women and 7 men; b) 12 seats in first with 4 women; 5 men and three empty seats.

My last two flights to Hawaii were on a DC-10 and a 747 and they had so many seats in first I didn't bother to count but the gender mix was pretty even (a little bit like Noah's Ark -- wait, hey you rabbits, wait up; only two, only two).

Comments?

[This message has been edited by KatW (edited 01-27-99).]

[This message has been edited by KatW (edited 01-27-99).]

[This message has been edited by KatW (edited 01-27-99).]

I am now typing with my 10' pole, because that's as close as I need to be to this one.
However, somewhere in the mix (not related to glass ceilings) is a percentage of female vs. male flyers (frequent or not). That percentage is/has been predominantly male. It is now becoming more balanced and I think we will find that, in the very near future, more of those FC upgrade seats will be occupied by females (Marvella excluded).

Take a close look at the people here on FT, of the ones we can gender identify, most are of the male gender. Could that be because there are more male gender flyers? Or, is it because female genders just do not post to any kind of bulletin board? I believe the answer is that there are more male flyers, and therefore more airplane seats are occupied by males than females. My statistical sample has a plus or minus 4.2% error.

Actually, the clubs (AC, RCC) seem to be even more overwhelmingly male. I always stick out in a lounge - (quite young, casually-dressed, non-white male). I could also make an argument that I've been the only minority in First Class on my last three flights that I've gotten upgraded (YYZ-YVR, SFO-YYZ, YYZ-SEA) - and there have been very few women on any of these flights in First including red-eyes.

I agree with most all the comments here and would offer one additional observation. Female FFs (Flyertalk members excluded, of course) do not seem to pursue the "mileage craze" as much as male FFs. I have heard comments from a number of female colleagues who travel quite frequently, that they "cannot be bothered" with tracking miles/points. While they gladly offer up their FF#s at check-in, they do not seem to pursue many bonus opportunities. Anyone else observe a similar pattern?

interesting point, mileking. When trading stamps were popular in the '50s-60's, they skewed heavily female. Now ff miles, which are supposedly the "green stamps of the '90s" are more avidly sought by males. Interesting turnabout. The big travelers in my office are mostly male, and are pretty rabid about their miles, and more rabid than the few female big travelers.

While I agree there are more men as frequent travelers in the skies today, that is a product of the work environment for the past oh, 20 years, not whether women are less interested in the programs, themselves. Speaking as a woman that has traveled most of her professional life (and is a high end FF in many programs), I can say that most of my female peers do not enjoy the travel for two reasons. One, of course, is the impact of travel on their families, and the second is the abominable treatment afforded many women by the travel industry. Here are a few I have experienced in the past three months (if I dug back any further in the past you would be reading all night!!!):

Continental Airlines (Gold Elite): On 3 flights in 2 weeks, I was in FC (upgrades). The FA passed by myself in the first row to ensure all the men had their coats hung. When I spoke up asking for some attention, I was told they would "get right to me". Granted I may have been dressed casually (as is the norm for many), but so were half the men in that cabin! On one flight I was even told there was no more room for coats and I was the 2nd person in the cabin! During the flights it seems that men never have a trouble getting refills on their drinks, but I am rarely offered anything.

Hyatt (Diamond): Now here they offered me ground floor smoking accomodations after I had already checked in through 1-800-checkin. Funny, they lost my reservation, but the gentleman ahead of me had no problem obtaining a room on a higher level. After explaining I did not feel safe on the ground floor, the clerk shrugged and told me there was nothing she could do. After 30 minutes of arguing with her and the manager, I contacted the Hyatt reservations center, who managed to find me a suite to stay in.

Now I can go on and on, but the truth is, that most of the service personnel are not trained to appropriately handle female travelers, and hotels are far from security consious. I revel in utilizing my FF points and often take exotic vacations with my husband, but I have to say that I receive the best treatment when I am with him (and he has no status).

Any comments ladies????

I too agree with the treatment of women vs. men by FA and hotel clerks. Most FA and hotel clerks are female....so with a little kindness from the opposite sex (maybe a smile or a compliment) the male receives better treatment. (Upgraded rooms, etc). I too have witnessed first hand the difference when traveling with my husband vs. by myself

OOOh, Gabbie, did you hit the nail on the head. I always thought I was being paranoid or imagning something because the FAs seemed to not want to hang up my jacket and managed to get the guys the drinks while I sat there. Just try to get eye contact with many FAs to let them know that you didn't get silverware or you'd like a refill. It's like being an invisible person. Invisible passengers and glass ceilings? Nice metaphor or simile.

I do not think any female gender posting on this thread will get any disagreement from any of the male genders posting here. We're among friends when we discuss items here and really there is no right or no wrong, just opinions. While I do have a problem with the manner in which female travelers are treated by some of airlines and hotels mentioned above, the problem will not get solved here. We are aware. If one wants to vent frustration, fine. That's also part of why we're here

So, let's vent our frustrations and go ahead and "Preach to the Choir". We do understand.

Thanks Jaws!!!!

At least this is one forum where I feel a member of the clique!!! And thanks everyone for letting me get many years of frustration off my chest.

Somewhat related, and a bit historical:

Back in the days of old (35+ years ago) United used to openly advertise in their timetables and flight schedules 'men only' flights, primarily using their French-built Caravelle jets. Most of their flights were between business centers (i.e. JFK-ORD). Today, this practice wouldn't even be tolerated (and I believe it is also illegal, since it violates the Civil Rights Act).

This is not to excuse poor treatment. I wouldnt accept it and dont think anyone else should. Just some thoughts on why it might be.

Several times I've heard FA's talking to each other. From my informal unscientific
easedropping:

FA's don't like extra work(most of us don't)
so they like people who travel alot, they are less work, they know where to go, they know the ropes. The conventional wisdom(whatever good it is) is that many women are inexperienced and thus more work).

This may have been true 15 or 20 years ago,
but old impressions die hard.

As for dressing casually, well I fly that way almost half the time and I havent noticed a difference in treatment.

It would be interesting to video and study FA/passenger. All the combinations with respect to gender to see if there is a pattern.

What about Male FAs. Do they give better service to female passengers. Does sexual
orientation come into play?

Freud could have a field-day with this topic.

On a serious note, maybe its up to us guys
to take action here. Show the world the Chivalry isnt dead.

Guys, Next time you see a woman passenger near you getting sub standard service in relation to yourself say something to the FA. Of course that raises the issue. Would that be viewed as patronizing or perhaps a lame pickup attempt? Would the woman passenger be insulted?

There are so many possible issues, are women
FA's threatened by women first class passengers? Does a sucessful business woman make them feel.... I think I better stop.

I agree with Boomer. I have seen this treatment myself, and felt funny about saying anything about it. Next time I will not be so shy. It is a shame that this still goes on today.

As for ratios, I have never really even thought to notice. But my gut feeling is that it has to do with men being more concerned about status than women in general. But that opinion probably says more about me than it actually does about the situation...

Jaws - Catman may have two ties, but do you have multiple genders (all of them male) ... ?

OK "Tree"--The Catcop will have you incarcerated for the above comment. You may even have to spend time on the MTA, where there is absolutely no empathy for any gender. Do "trees" have a gender? Or, are they both?