Wildman

I think the industry needs to change with the times, like an earlier poster wrote, be more flexible and creative. The fare and miles are why the seat was sold in the first place....issuing miles is really just a sort of I.O.U. note that the airlines get to pay back at their own time and place (they control the inventory.) Doesn't really cost them much....even the F UG, NW, like many other airlines, always holds back a certain number of seats for last minutes sells or if anyone wants to use up some miles....so they control all of the perks you are getting. And if you didn't eat up the F food, either the employees would or it would go to waste. Ah, but the true cost is the alcohol

BamaVol

Just to be clear, I'm talking about marginal revenue and expense. The plane's already flying. There's one seat empty. Add a pax and make $88. If you spread the fixed cost over all the pax on the plane, they're sure as heck not making $88 a pax. I'm thinking the $10 is the fuel to fly another 250 pounds, a couple soft drinks and a bag of peanuts.

I agree that AA and other carriers would be smart to have a backup plan in emergencies that allows them to offer a variety of choices to keep seats available for those who must fly: EQMs, vouchers, other incentives. I can see a revenue opportunity as well; pay $X for a guaranteed arrival. That gets you a no-bump, next flight out, seat on another carrier, what have you or we give you back 5 times the price of your ticket.

sbagdon

Anyone happen to know/remember the absolute cost of fuel per pax/hour? It would have to be <$8/pax/hour, for NW to make any money on my next MR.

I believe NW has that for Plats. As a NW Plat, you can book any flight, any time, any where, for full-Y, if you call 24 hours pre-departure... even on flights that are P0Y0. But you better have to fly, because full-Y sure isn't cheap. But once you have that ticket, you're at the top of the list, both in Elite status, and fare basis, from getting bumped. There'll be 100+ people ahead of you (or there had better be!), to be IDB'ed.

Steve B.

sbagdon

To do that would be to go against market forces (IMO). Fares that are MR-friendly appear to have been related to market forces.

Steve B.

formeraa

I just don't buy the whole premise of this discussion. The weather is crappy in ORD and real crappy in DFW. Somehow (during all the ensuing mess) someone at AA is supposed to magically look in the computer and figure out who MIGHT be doing mileage runs. In the words of Bush, Sr., it's "not gonna happen" anytime soon...

The FA were probably not mad at the OP. They were probably tired of all the delays and grumpy passengers. In these situations, I try to be very nice to the FA's and empathize with them. The world works better that way!

craz

with the weather what it has been lately alot of people were stranded all over. Now be it AA or anyone else had it been for anything other then Weather or ATC then maybe there would be someone to talk to, but as long as it remains W or A, then the Carrriers wont care as they dont have to provide Meals or Hotels or even FIM you over to someone else, so theres no reason for them to allow people NOT to fly and to get credit. as they arent to be Blamed.

Now if they were DUMB enough as to allow us to buy tkts get the miles and bonuses and not actually fly them , I doubt anyone here on FT would ever Fly that Carrier , Why? simply, in the case of AA with a plane that holds 155 youd probably have in excess of 100 EXPs on each and every flight, so forget about EVER getting UPed and youd have to use your Miles to get the UP back when you purchased the tkt 4 months in advance otherwise FC will be full if it wasnt already.

No I think the system is just fine as it is, with making us put our Butts in the seat.

BamaVol

NW just rose in my estimation, if what you say is true. And, a MRer would have to be crazy desperate to be flying on a Y fare, so by default they fall to the lower end of the list.

As far as fuel cost per pax/hour, I'd be looking for the marginal fuel cost/pax. I'm guessing a lot of the fuel goes to flying the plane itself, which must weigh considerably more than the pax and their baggage. It's entirely possible in my limited mind that the difference between flying a plane with 200 pax vs 201 pax is a few gal of jet fuel. Think about driving your car. Do you notice a difference in fuel economy when driving with or without a small bag of groceries on the back seat? It's there, but practically unnoticeable.

sbagdon

http://www.nwa.com/worldperks/elite/benguide06.pdf
Page 8

Guaranteed Confirmed Reservations
For our WorldPerks Platinum Elite and Gold Elite members, there’s no such
thing as a sold-out flight. You’re guaranteed a confirmed reservation on
most Northwest-operated flights, anywhere in the world! Simply purchase
a qualifying Coach Class ticket at least 48 hours before flight departure.
World Business Class tickets require a 7-day advance purchase.
PLATINUM ELITE MEMBERS Valid with purchased full Y fare
or -26/-27 type Coach or full J fare
World Business Class ticket*
GOLD ELITE MEMBERS Valid with purchased full Y fare
or -26/-27 type Coach ticket*
(Note: -26/-27 type fares that require an advance purchase are not applicable.)
* Northwest reserves the right to limit this offer in certain circumstances where it is infeasible,
such as smaller aircraft service within Asia and/or major world events, such as but not limited to:
the Olympics, major auto shows, Super Bowl, etc.
For reservations, please call Elite Services. Outside North America, please call the
local Northwest Reservations office

As per fuel burn, I'll accept that. I presume the flight computer sets throttle and trim (and I'm sure a ton of other info) to a certain point, based on keyed info. If there's one more (or one less) pax, figure all that means is that the plane flies a few more feet higher or lower.

Steve B.

jerry crump

Could somebody explain to me, since everyone thinks they are just the incremental passenger that cost the airline almost no expense, which passenger on the plane is is the one they have to fly the flight for, pay the fuel, labor and depreciation for?


It seems to me that the only way you can claim that you are costing the airline very little is if you are flying standby, non-rev and by doing so you are taking a trip that you would not have paid that airline or another one for. Otherwise it only seems fair to spread most of the overhead cost evenly over all the revenue passengers or at least evenly per cabin of service. Even the no-shows cost the airline almost as much as those that ride on the plane.

I'm going to be the first to say I am a high maintaince coach passenger that cost the airline a bunch of money to put on the plane. I will be getting double miles, lots of promotions, a rock bottom airfare often denied boarding compensation, free entry in to the lounge, extra peanuts and a couple refills of my drink if not some free alcohol. So I have no visions that I cost the airline nothing. Can anyone else admit that the ailine is not a welfare bus that transports them to exotic places at virtally no cost?

moman

Sorry Jerry, but BamaVol is correct. To understand the business, you need to look at the MARGINS: marginal revenue and marginal cost.

For all the perks you receive, it costs the airline very little. Fares are sold in buckets so the airline can maximize marignal revenues. Fixed costs in the industry and very high and thus is doens't matter if there are 10 people or 100 people on the flight, the jet payment, crew salaries, and even the fuel costs are still present. It's the marginal costs/revenues (seats sold) that make the real difference.

MrAOK

even that isn't so simple. If through the loyalty program you keep people flying your airline as opposed to the cheapest, then it's probably best to look at the overall effect of the program on retaining ridership versus it's cost.

So even if a specific promotion is costly in the short term, if it's net effect is to make loyal customers more loyal and they'll now fly the airline over the next year or alternatively you don't have to match somebody's airfare because people will pay more to get miles, that's what is important.

By the way, I'm sort of amazed that the obvious didn't happen here.

If AA employees realized they had mileage runners on this trip and some passengers weren't going to get accommodated, don't you think that rather than get mad, someone would have had the sense to have turned to the mileage runners and either offer vouchers to do the runs on another day or mileage credit instead of flying

BamaVol

Congratulations on your 1000th post, MrAOK. I'd have to forgive the AA folks on the scene as they were probably up to their armpits in alligators. But, it would be nice to think that someone back in HQ could construct contingency plans to such an effect and push the button to make it happen after some predetermined set of circumstances.

BamaVol

In some cases, that person isn't even on the flight. It's the 50th pax on the next flight and the airline has to get an a/c to his point of orgin.

Turn the question upside down and look at it this way. I pay for a $98 non-refundable ticket. I develop fear of flying, and choose to miss that flight. How much additional profit does the airline make on that flight vs. if I board? The answer is whatever their variable cost is. The plane still flies and uses $52,000 worth of jet fuel, incurs gate fees at both end. The pilots and FA's and ground crew still get paid. Maintenance will still be performed. The jet depreciates. But they save the cost of 1 can of diet coke, 1 biscoff cookie. 2 napkins (1 always falls on the floor) and whatever additional fuel is needed to transport my 180 pounds plus 50 pounds of baggage.

jerry crump

jerry crump

Then I've been getting ripped off for all these years. I've paid to go in buses, movie theatres, concerts, amusement parks, museums, rented movies, cable tv, DSL, long distance calls, payed college tuition etc... Even the all you can eat buffets were going to throw out the extra food at the end of the night and the vegtables at the super market were going to spoil and be thrown out. The clothes I wear were going to go out of season and out of fashion. There was a flood at the car dealership the week after I bought my car so insurance would have paid for it. My builder had to keep his guys busy or they would have found a job somewhere else.

Where does it end?