Airline view on Milage runners ?
Jul 28, 2002, 9:14 pm
#31
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: SEA (Transplant from MCO, HNL, and DEN)
Programs: AS MVP Gold 100K
Posts: 229
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Luscombe:
DL RPU's are looking at records up to 6 months old to look for mileage runners. Per discussion with DL agent today, DL will apply appliable fares for each leg and charge back to credit card used on original ticketing. </font>
DL RPU's are looking at records up to 6 months old to look for mileage runners. Per discussion with DL agent today, DL will apply appliable fares for each leg and charge back to credit card used on original ticketing. </font>
Aug 1, 2002, 5:22 pm
#32
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 507
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by FloridaFlyers:
This is EXACTLY why I avoid flying DL! Additionally, I question the legality of adding unauthorized fees and charges "after the fact."
</font>
This is EXACTLY why I avoid flying DL! Additionally, I question the legality of adding unauthorized fees and charges "after the fact."
</font>
Aug 3, 2002, 8:09 am
#34
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Chicago,IL.
Posts: 3,022
Hi All,
well, just returned from 20,058 miles on AA and thought I could now share my own experiences...
As most of my tickets were bought seperately (found this to be slightly cheaper and I received the 1000 mile booking bonus each time on aa.com), the counter staff generally were a little confused when they tried to check the luggage through, however no one was really interested in fact that I was flying so many miles.
The one slightly negative reaction was when our LGB-JFK leg was cancelled and we had to be re-booked on 4 connecting flights that began from JFK. The agent kept trying to only book us to JFK and make us book the other 4 flights through the aa telephone reservation line but after some careful persuasion she reluctantly agreed to sort out the flights.
In summary, I found most ticket agents to react quite neutrally to the whole milage flying, no "thank you for giving us lots of business" or any " there must be something wrong with this person". Apart from one transatlantic return, all the miles were domestic so the whole customs issue didnt come into play.
Oh, one more interesting piece of info, 14 different aircrafts boarded and NOT ONE secondary screening..yoohoo !! Usually I am "randomly chosen" all the time...
well, just returned from 20,058 miles on AA and thought I could now share my own experiences...
As most of my tickets were bought seperately (found this to be slightly cheaper and I received the 1000 mile booking bonus each time on aa.com), the counter staff generally were a little confused when they tried to check the luggage through, however no one was really interested in fact that I was flying so many miles.
The one slightly negative reaction was when our LGB-JFK leg was cancelled and we had to be re-booked on 4 connecting flights that began from JFK. The agent kept trying to only book us to JFK and make us book the other 4 flights through the aa telephone reservation line but after some careful persuasion she reluctantly agreed to sort out the flights.
In summary, I found most ticket agents to react quite neutrally to the whole milage flying, no "thank you for giving us lots of business" or any " there must be something wrong with this person". Apart from one transatlantic return, all the miles were domestic so the whole customs issue didnt come into play.
Oh, one more interesting piece of info, 14 different aircrafts boarded and NOT ONE secondary screening..yoohoo !! Usually I am "randomly chosen" all the time...
Aug 3, 2002, 2:19 pm
#35
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 36
I've been following flyertalk for over a year now. The thing i don't understand is how to swindle the most miles from flights.
quote:
I think it helps one to be more creative.
ie - going from Dallas to LA.
DFW - LAX? That's one way
DFW-BOS-JFK-LGB-JFK-DFW - that's another.
Do you have to pay more for the ticket? Where do you research such trips?
I'm planning a RTW, and on reaching Platlium status (cheers to Fewmiles) so any help with squeezing extra miles would be great.
Thanks to the community.
quote:
I think it helps one to be more creative.
ie - going from Dallas to LA.
DFW - LAX? That's one way
DFW-BOS-JFK-LGB-JFK-DFW - that's another.
Do you have to pay more for the ticket? Where do you research such trips?
I'm planning a RTW, and on reaching Platlium status (cheers to Fewmiles) so any help with squeezing extra miles would be great.
Thanks to the community.
Aug 3, 2002, 9:15 pm
#36
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: source of weird and eccentric ideas
Posts: 38,761
The folks who work in the airlines are like the bank tellers who work with money all the time -- they get blase about it after a while. Leisure, business travelers, mileage runners, nothing remarkable.
I do think that FTers game the system and to that extent the airline management can't be in love with mileage runners. FF programs are designed to affect people's loyalty.
We at FT use those programs consciously to our advantage. This is perfectly "legal" under most situations but it isn't what was intended and is most certainly not real profitable for the airlines either.
I do think that FTers game the system and to that extent the airline management can't be in love with mileage runners. FF programs are designed to affect people's loyalty.
We at FT use those programs consciously to our advantage. This is perfectly "legal" under most situations but it isn't what was intended and is most certainly not real profitable for the airlines either.
Aug 4, 2002, 8:56 am
#37
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 63,720
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by richard:
The folks who work in the airlines are like the bank tellers who work with money all the time -- they get blase about it after a while. Leisure, business travelers, mileage runners, nothing remarkable.
</font>
The folks who work in the airlines are like the bank tellers who work with money all the time -- they get blase about it after a while. Leisure, business travelers, mileage runners, nothing remarkable.
</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">I do think that FTers game the system and to that extent the airline management can't be in love with mileage runners. FF programs are designed to affect people's loyalty.
We at FT use those programs consciously to our advantage. This is perfectly "legal" under most situations but it isn't what was intended and is most certainly not real profitable for the airlines either</font>
We at FT use those programs consciously to our advantage. This is perfectly "legal" under most situations but it isn't what was intended and is most certainly not real profitable for the airlines either</font>
Most of my runs happen on flights that are lightly loaded. If they weren't lightly loaded, AA wouldn't be offering cheap fares. They don't adjust award inventory just for me. If anyone is being affected, it's people who don't fly enough for status because the limited award inventory is being siphoned away by higher-level elites.
Aug 4, 2002, 9:01 am
#38
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Programs: OWEmerald; STARGold; BonvoyPlat; IHGPlat/Amb; HiltonGold; A|ClubPat; AirMilesPlat
Posts: 38,187
There is no "swindle" when you maximize mileage via convoluted routings. The ticket rules often permit enroute connections which do not total to more than 125% of the point to point mileage on international flights. But many US routes can involve very convoluted routings given the hub and spoke model. Even on "legitimate" trips, one might fly half way across the country to connect with another flight which takes you to your final destination: BOS-DFW-ATL using AA would be a case in point of such a trip, rather than taking a non-stop BOS-ATL on DL.
This aspect of the mileage run is unique to the US's own screwy domestic airline route structure. It is only a "swindle" if you don't fly all your segments and use convoluted routings to get a cheaper fare to one of those intermediate [or "hidden"] cities.
I guess to FTers from other parts of the world, this looks bizarre. But to those of us in NAmerica, and particularly in the US, this is "normal"...
This aspect of the mileage run is unique to the US's own screwy domestic airline route structure. It is only a "swindle" if you don't fly all your segments and use convoluted routings to get a cheaper fare to one of those intermediate [or "hidden"] cities.
I guess to FTers from other parts of the world, this looks bizarre. But to those of us in NAmerica, and particularly in the US, this is "normal"...
Aug 4, 2002, 10:00 am
#39
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: source of weird and eccentric ideas
Posts: 38,761
I don't mean that it's a swindle. It's "gaming" in the sense that we work the system in a way to gain a huge advantage. Nothing unethical about it, but not what the airlines "like" IMHO.
Most people choose an airline, they fly, and they occasionally note that they have increased their FF miles account. They like the upgrades. The airline feels that the FF program influences the individual traveler to be loyal to the airline over other airlines.
If most customers are at 43,000 status miles near the end of the year they do not say "I'll just take a few $180 transcon flights so I hit Gold this year." But we FTers often go to an extreme: how little can I spend to hit 100K status miles?
We use cheap fares, mileage runs, etc., in order to gain status for the lowest dollars. We are probably amongst the least profitable customers the airline has.
Perspective: One business customer on one trip can spend more than many of us spend all year.
Most people choose an airline, they fly, and they occasionally note that they have increased their FF miles account. They like the upgrades. The airline feels that the FF program influences the individual traveler to be loyal to the airline over other airlines.
If most customers are at 43,000 status miles near the end of the year they do not say "I'll just take a few $180 transcon flights so I hit Gold this year." But we FTers often go to an extreme: how little can I spend to hit 100K status miles?
We use cheap fares, mileage runs, etc., in order to gain status for the lowest dollars. We are probably amongst the least profitable customers the airline has.
Perspective: One business customer on one trip can spend more than many of us spend all year.
Aug 4, 2002, 3:09 pm
#40
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Massachusetts, USA; AA Plat, DL GM and Flying Colonel; Bonvoy Platinum
Posts: 24,264
I agree that we work within the rules which the airlines set and that mileage runs are a net plus to the airline's bottom line, but there's another aspect of it.
Giving elite status costs an airline something.
I don't mean luggage tags, which don't cost much, or early boarding, since we'd have to board at some point anyhow, or special lines, since we'd have to go into some line anyhow and would eventually be taken care of by someone. But consider some of the costs AA incurs because I'm EXP:
- Whenever I fly overseas, I get to use a Flagship Lounge with free drinks, good snack food and other costs. When flying on other oneWorld airlines I get to use their first class lounges, for which those partners charge AA real money.
- When I get awards free of capacity controls (or with relaxed capacity controls) I might displace a paying passenger who shows up later.
- When I use the "seat on any flight for full Y fare if booked 24 hours in advance" benefit I might force them to bump another passenger, whereas they'd simply tell a non-EXP that the flight is oversold and ask him/her to choose another. (I haven't used this benefit yet, but people do.)
- When they waive fees they give up the amount of the fees. (I agree that many of those fees are unreasonable, but that doesn't change this fact.)
- When they give me free upgrades they incur the direct cost of a better meal and a higher class of service (including a statistical 3 percent of the cost of one FA) while leaving my mileage and upgrade credit balances intact.
- The people who take care of me on the EXP desk are better paid than the others, spend more time with me than the others would, and this desk is sufficiently staffed that I hardly ever have to wait at all. That staffing level means that Executive Desk agents have some idle time waiting for the phone to ring further increasing AA's cost.
Do these and similar costs, in total, exceed the incremental revenue AA gets through mileage runs that bring some people to EXP? I don't know. I think they still come out ahead. But it's not as clear-cut as all that.
Giving elite status costs an airline something.
I don't mean luggage tags, which don't cost much, or early boarding, since we'd have to board at some point anyhow, or special lines, since we'd have to go into some line anyhow and would eventually be taken care of by someone. But consider some of the costs AA incurs because I'm EXP:
- Whenever I fly overseas, I get to use a Flagship Lounge with free drinks, good snack food and other costs. When flying on other oneWorld airlines I get to use their first class lounges, for which those partners charge AA real money.
- When I get awards free of capacity controls (or with relaxed capacity controls) I might displace a paying passenger who shows up later.
- When I use the "seat on any flight for full Y fare if booked 24 hours in advance" benefit I might force them to bump another passenger, whereas they'd simply tell a non-EXP that the flight is oversold and ask him/her to choose another. (I haven't used this benefit yet, but people do.)
- When they waive fees they give up the amount of the fees. (I agree that many of those fees are unreasonable, but that doesn't change this fact.)
- When they give me free upgrades they incur the direct cost of a better meal and a higher class of service (including a statistical 3 percent of the cost of one FA) while leaving my mileage and upgrade credit balances intact.
- The people who take care of me on the EXP desk are better paid than the others, spend more time with me than the others would, and this desk is sufficiently staffed that I hardly ever have to wait at all. That staffing level means that Executive Desk agents have some idle time waiting for the phone to ring further increasing AA's cost.
Do these and similar costs, in total, exceed the incremental revenue AA gets through mileage runs that bring some people to EXP? I don't know. I think they still come out ahead. But it's not as clear-cut as all that.
Aug 6, 2002, 1:31 pm
#41
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: DEN (Boulder) ~ UA 1K, Hyatt Diamond, US Gold, Marriott Platinum, Starwood Gold, LH SEN
Programs: Hyatt, United, Starwood, USAir, Marriott, Lufthansa, Hilton
Posts: 1,514
Pretty funny to fly to LHR for 25 hours and have the same crew on the way there and the way back...
Then to fly to SIN and have the same crew on the way there and the way back.
Most just laugh at Mr. Boulder and I and say "we used to do that too in our younger days, but of course we did it for free!!!"
1K all the way...
Then to fly to SIN and have the same crew on the way there and the way back.
Most just laugh at Mr. Boulder and I and say "we used to do that too in our younger days, but of course we did it for free!!!"
1K all the way...
Aug 6, 2002, 1:33 pm
#42
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: DEN (Boulder) ~ UA 1K, Hyatt Diamond, US Gold, Marriott Platinum, Starwood Gold, LH SEN
Programs: Hyatt, United, Starwood, USAir, Marriott, Lufthansa, Hilton
Posts: 1,514
chc4me..."Do you have to pay more for the ticket? Where do you research such trips?
I'm planning a RTW, and on reaching Platlium status (cheers to Fewmiles) so any help with squeezing extra miles would be great.
Thanks to the community."
You don't have to pay more, you just have to get creative. I don't know DL very well, but ual.com has a feature and orbitz.com has a feature for multi-city or multi-leg, where you don't go from DEN - IND, you go from DEN-DFW-ORD-IND...
Another point of note, RTW are not usually the cheapest way to do it...
I'm planning a RTW, and on reaching Platlium status (cheers to Fewmiles) so any help with squeezing extra miles would be great.
Thanks to the community."
You don't have to pay more, you just have to get creative. I don't know DL very well, but ual.com has a feature and orbitz.com has a feature for multi-city or multi-leg, where you don't go from DEN - IND, you go from DEN-DFW-ORD-IND...
Another point of note, RTW are not usually the cheapest way to do it...
Aug 6, 2002, 2:29 pm
#43
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 5,077
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Luscombe:
DL RPU's are looking at records up to 6 months old to look for mileage runners. Per discussion with DL agent today, DL will apply appliable fares for each leg and charge back to credit card used on original ticketing.
</font>
DL RPU's are looking at records up to 6 months old to look for mileage runners. Per discussion with DL agent today, DL will apply appliable fares for each leg and charge back to credit card used on original ticketing.
</font>
How is Delta supposed to bill you for the individual segments?
If I did SEA-DFW-IAH-ATL-TPA will they go after me for SEA-DFW, DFW-IAH, IAH-ATL, ATL-TPA? If so, what will they charge me for each flight segment? Are they going to look up the lowest applicable fare for each of those segments and charge me for that or will they pick full Y? Round-trip or one-way? What if I did SEA-DFW-IAH-ATL-TPA-CVG-SLC-SEA? I don't see that Delta would bill me one way (which is often full fare) for each of those segments.
All in all, I don't believe it.