Does Elite Upgrading Depend On Who's Checking You In?
May 13, 2005 | 6:00 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 915
Does Elite Upgrading Depend On Who's Checking You In?
Thinking about the entries on the You are not entitled to a room on the concierge level! thread and the frequently posted opinion (here and on the Starwood Preferred Guest forum) regarding upgrades causes me to introduce this topic.
I don't recall precisely where I first read it, but someone opined that the reason that *wood treated its elites more consistently than Marriott with regards to upgrading was due to Starwood owning and managing its hotels as compared to Marriott where the majority are owned by others and can be self-managed or via a contract by Marriottl.
Logic would suggest that Marriott personnel would be more likely to administer to the spirit of Marriott's representations of its upgrading practices (found in both summaries and the terms and conditions in Marriott Rewards) as opposed to a Marriott-flagged hotel's front desk personnel and management, employed directly by the establishment's owner.
Please forgive the preceding lengthy exposition for the purposes of posing theses questions -
1. Of it's approximately 2,400 flagged properties, does anyone have an idea as to how many (or what percentage) Marriott-flagged properties are actually managed by them?
2. Does anyone had any experience(s) that either confirms or debunks the above theory?
In closing let me state that I'm well aware that Marriott holds all locations to the same standard.
But, as a practical matter (and borne out by countless posts and threads), one gets the impression that the reality is that it is impossible for them to enforce published policies having to do with upgrades across the breadth of their properties.
Therefore, they've come to accept having to live with the consequences.
I don't recall precisely where I first read it, but someone opined that the reason that *wood treated its elites more consistently than Marriott with regards to upgrading was due to Starwood owning and managing its hotels as compared to Marriott where the majority are owned by others and can be self-managed or via a contract by Marriottl.
Logic would suggest that Marriott personnel would be more likely to administer to the spirit of Marriott's representations of its upgrading practices (found in both summaries and the terms and conditions in Marriott Rewards) as opposed to a Marriott-flagged hotel's front desk personnel and management, employed directly by the establishment's owner.
Please forgive the preceding lengthy exposition for the purposes of posing theses questions -
1. Of it's approximately 2,400 flagged properties, does anyone have an idea as to how many (or what percentage) Marriott-flagged properties are actually managed by them?
2. Does anyone had any experience(s) that either confirms or debunks the above theory?
In closing let me state that I'm well aware that Marriott holds all locations to the same standard.
But, as a practical matter (and borne out by countless posts and threads), one gets the impression that the reality is that it is impossible for them to enforce published policies having to do with upgrades across the breadth of their properties.
Therefore, they've come to accept having to live with the consequences.
May 13, 2005 | 6:28 am
#2
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 103
Originally Posted by rahmanbar
Thinking about the entries on the You are not entitled to a room on the concierge level! thread and the frequently posted opinion (here and on the Starwood Preferred Guest forum) regarding upgrades causes me to introduce this topic.
I don't recall precisely where I first read it, but someone opined that the reason that *wood treated its elites more consistently than Marriott with regards to upgrading was due to Starwood owning and managing its hotels as compared to Marriott where the majority are owned by others and can be self-managed or via a contract by Marriottl.
Logic would suggest that Marriott personnel would be more likely to administer to the spirit of Marriott's representations of its upgrading practices (found in both summaries and the terms and conditions in Marriott Rewards) as opposed to a Marriott-flagged hotel's front desk personnel and management, employed directly by the establishment's owner.
Please forgive the preceding lengthy exposition for the purposes of posing theses questions -
1. Of it's approximately 2,400 flagged properties, does anyone have an idea as to how many (or what percentage) Marriott-flagged properties are actually managed by them?
2. Does anyone had any experience(s) that either confirms or debunks the above theory?
In closing let me state that I'm well aware that Marriott holds all locations to the same standard.
But, as a practical matter (and borne out by countless posts and threads), one gets the impression that the reality is that it is impossible for them to enforce published policies having to do with upgrades across the breadth of their properties.
Therefore, they've come to accept having to live with the consequences.
I don't recall precisely where I first read it, but someone opined that the reason that *wood treated its elites more consistently than Marriott with regards to upgrading was due to Starwood owning and managing its hotels as compared to Marriott where the majority are owned by others and can be self-managed or via a contract by Marriottl.
Logic would suggest that Marriott personnel would be more likely to administer to the spirit of Marriott's representations of its upgrading practices (found in both summaries and the terms and conditions in Marriott Rewards) as opposed to a Marriott-flagged hotel's front desk personnel and management, employed directly by the establishment's owner.
Please forgive the preceding lengthy exposition for the purposes of posing theses questions -
1. Of it's approximately 2,400 flagged properties, does anyone have an idea as to how many (or what percentage) Marriott-flagged properties are actually managed by them?
2. Does anyone had any experience(s) that either confirms or debunks the above theory?
In closing let me state that I'm well aware that Marriott holds all locations to the same standard.
But, as a practical matter (and borne out by countless posts and threads), one gets the impression that the reality is that it is impossible for them to enforce published policies having to do with upgrades across the breadth of their properties.
Therefore, they've come to accept having to live with the consequences.
With Marriott the mix of company managed to outside managed is about 45% Company and 55% non-Company.
And as a former Company employee I can tell you that for some things it does matter a lot if the location is Company managed or not but on the issue of upgrading I personally have never seen or heard anything that would make that theory universally true. Naturally there are always renagade locations that will do what they choose but for the majority the issue of upgrading is left up to whatever the FOM, Rooms Controller, and the individual desk clerks decide to do.
May 13, 2005 | 6:38 am
#3
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: RDU
Programs: Marriott PLT, Starwood, American Gold, Delta
Posts: 448
What's the FOM?
front office?
May 13, 2005 | 9:04 am
#4
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 1,461
Descretion
Originally Posted by Lefty33
With Marriott the mix of company managed to outside managed is about 45% Company and 55% non-Company.
And as a former Company employee I can tell you that for some things it does matter a lot if the location is Company managed or not but on the issue of upgrading I personally have never seen or heard anything that would make that theory universally true. Naturally there are always renagade locations that will do what they choose but for the majority the issue of upgrading is left up to whatever the FOM, Rooms Controller, and the individual desk clerks decide to do.
And as a former Company employee I can tell you that for some things it does matter a lot if the location is Company managed or not but on the issue of upgrading I personally have never seen or heard anything that would make that theory universally true. Naturally there are always renagade locations that will do what they choose but for the majority the issue of upgrading is left up to whatever the FOM, Rooms Controller, and the individual desk clerks decide to do.
The Computer magically and mysteriously allowed me to upgrade with no extra charge.
May 13, 2005 | 9:21 am
#5
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 915
Originally Posted by Lefty33
With Marriott the mix of company managed to outside managed is about 45% Company and 55% non-Company.
And as a former Company employee I can tell you that for some things it does matter a lot if the location is Company managed or not but on the issue of upgrading I personally have never seen or heard anything that would make that theory universally true. Naturally there are always renagade locations that will do what they choose but for the majority the issue of upgrading is left up to whatever the FOM, Rooms Controller, and the individual desk clerks decide to do.
And as a former Company employee I can tell you that for some things it does matter a lot if the location is Company managed or not but on the issue of upgrading I personally have never seen or heard anything that would make that theory universally true. Naturally there are always renagade locations that will do what they choose but for the majority the issue of upgrading is left up to whatever the FOM, Rooms Controller, and the individual desk clerks decide to do.
That causes me to think there may be a real bases basis for Marriott elites' complaints about hassles regarding upgrades and SPG posters' claims that Starwood personnel grant them automatically, at least most of the time.
In the earlier, referenced thread (that's linked to this one in the OP), there were two posts detailing verbal contortions to utilize at check-in in order to receive them.
When you think of it, it's kind of ridiculous that it takes engaging in "word games" to receive that which the rules state (granted, with qualifications) has been earned by virtue of demonstrated loyalty on a scale exceeding the competition's definition of that term.
Perhaps, in light of this, Marriott should consider a more certain recognition for its best customers - something it can control, like discounted point requirements or the waiving of capacity controls on awards for those holding the Gold and Platinum status.
May 14, 2005 | 3:28 pm
#6
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: burlington, north carolina,usa
Posts: 252
Charge for an upgrade?
I checked into the Casa Magna Marriot in Puerta Vallarta on this past monday and I am a platinum and the guy checking me in said if i wanted anything besides the standard room iI would have to pay a $75/ day "upgrade charge" I rgued sucessfully against it and was uupgraded has anyone else run intto this and is it "legal to charge you 75 extra per day as a Plat?
May 14, 2005 | 4:29 pm
#7
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 220
I don't know about the exact level of Marriott vs. Non-Marriott management, however, I do have some relevant information.
In his book, Spirit to Serve, 1997, JW Marriott Jr. claims that of 1,500 hotels in the system at that point, Marriott owned exactly 6 outright. No mention was made of how many they had shares in, or average share levels. As far as I know, the ownership levels haven't changed much.
It did also say the primary Marriott Hotel format was: An individual or group of enterprenuers or industrialists would want to build a hotel. Marriott would be contracted to design the hotel (and participate in its construction). Then, the individual or group would hire Marriott to provide its "hotel management expertise", on what I assumed was a consulting basis.
The book went into lengthy explanation about how Marriott's attention to details and having standards on the "way things were done", and how this provided a minimum acceptable standard of expectations from guests, "allowed Marriott to grow into what it is today", or words close to that effect. Personally, I think the book gushed a bit much on these issues. Somehow I don't think Bill really knows what's going on out there today.
I've heard some interesting stories recently about the Marriott Rewards program that relates to how how proudly Bill describes, in his book, Marriott's apparently much-praised "standards".
Apparently, as recently as 1990, awards weren't printed in batches by large printers like they are today. Individual MR reps, sitting at their desks, personally and manually typed up Awards on typewriters!
I get the feeling the MR program was started on a wing, a prayer, and a shoe-string budget; and not a lot of thought or design ever went into its procedures or computer systems. Until recently, you couldn't even get statements going back more than 18 months, and even getting that was like pulling teeth. Stays wind up getting missed a lot, and there are a multitude of reasons why other than forgetting to use your name and account number.
This sort of thing tends also to show up in the level of "MR" training found at the hotels, which varies wildly, but usually is not what you could describe as "high" in most locations.
In his book, Spirit to Serve, 1997, JW Marriott Jr. claims that of 1,500 hotels in the system at that point, Marriott owned exactly 6 outright. No mention was made of how many they had shares in, or average share levels. As far as I know, the ownership levels haven't changed much.
It did also say the primary Marriott Hotel format was: An individual or group of enterprenuers or industrialists would want to build a hotel. Marriott would be contracted to design the hotel (and participate in its construction). Then, the individual or group would hire Marriott to provide its "hotel management expertise", on what I assumed was a consulting basis.
The book went into lengthy explanation about how Marriott's attention to details and having standards on the "way things were done", and how this provided a minimum acceptable standard of expectations from guests, "allowed Marriott to grow into what it is today", or words close to that effect. Personally, I think the book gushed a bit much on these issues. Somehow I don't think Bill really knows what's going on out there today.
I've heard some interesting stories recently about the Marriott Rewards program that relates to how how proudly Bill describes, in his book, Marriott's apparently much-praised "standards".
Apparently, as recently as 1990, awards weren't printed in batches by large printers like they are today. Individual MR reps, sitting at their desks, personally and manually typed up Awards on typewriters!
I get the feeling the MR program was started on a wing, a prayer, and a shoe-string budget; and not a lot of thought or design ever went into its procedures or computer systems. Until recently, you couldn't even get statements going back more than 18 months, and even getting that was like pulling teeth. Stays wind up getting missed a lot, and there are a multitude of reasons why other than forgetting to use your name and account number.
This sort of thing tends also to show up in the level of "MR" training found at the hotels, which varies wildly, but usually is not what you could describe as "high" in most locations.
May 14, 2005 | 4:39 pm
#8
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 220
Originally Posted by rahmanbar
Please correct me if I'm missing something, but are you saying that most of the time it isn't the advertised rules/T's & C's that matter, but rather employees' descretion (and Marriott tolerates it as "business as usual")?
<snip>
<snip>
I believe that the MR rep training program is 10 weeks long (a few weeks in class and then the rest on the phone). Hotels employees get 4 hours, once, when the hotel is opened. Hotel MR training after that is by existing employee to existing employee, and reading out of training manuals, which I've never seen, but would like to take a look at and see how closely the information in there matches the T&C on Marriot.com. (Ok, this is only what I can figure out from limited information.)
As for whether Marriott should ensure it's employees are fully trained on all issues, well, of course they should do that.
The reality of employee turn-over, though, makes it tough. From time to time, I also seem to detect certain "laissez-faire" attitude by the hotels toward the MR program. Rarely I've picked up on frustration or even anger.
May 16, 2005 | 9:25 am
#9
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 103
Hotels employees get 4 hours, once, when the hotel is opened. Hotel MR training after that is by existing employee to existing employee, and reading out of training manuals, which I've never seen, but would like to take a look at and see how closely the information in there matches the T&C on Marriot.com. (Ok, this is only what I can figure out from limited information.)
QUOTE]
There is no select service property out there that is giving it's associates four hours of training on MR when it opens. Most MR learning comes from parts of two CD's you watch, word of mouth from other associates who have been with the Company, and from a wallet sized card that MR sends out to all the properties every year that associates are supposed to refer to.
But those cards cover the basics but do not even come close to covering the T&C's.
The time and money to train associates on MR, or many other things, do not exist with the way the average select service hotel is allowed to be staffed.
QUOTE]
There is no select service property out there that is giving it's associates four hours of training on MR when it opens. Most MR learning comes from parts of two CD's you watch, word of mouth from other associates who have been with the Company, and from a wallet sized card that MR sends out to all the properties every year that associates are supposed to refer to.
But those cards cover the basics but do not even come close to covering the T&C's.
The time and money to train associates on MR, or many other things, do not exist with the way the average select service hotel is allowed to be staffed.
May 20, 2005 | 3:58 pm
#10
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: DFW AA EXP 6.8MM, MR Plat Premier
Posts: 194
When I go to a Marriott property I have no idea whether it's owned directly or not, nor do I really want to take the time to find out. As a Plat you should expect and demand consistent service everywhere you go.
My routine for scoring upgrades are pretty simple. Most of the time it results in suites despite what the T&C's say.
- Call a few hours before arrival to ask what upgrades are available. If it's the usual "we've upgraded you to concierge level" then ask to see if they can do better. Ask for a corner room, room with a view, larger room, suites, whatever you can think of. This usually works if the rooms/suites are available.
- If I don't get the desired upgrade during the call, I'll ask for the name of the manager. When I check in I'll repeat the same routine as I did on the phone. If that still doesn't work the clerk may volunteer to get the manager, and if not you should ask for him/her by name. Sometimes the manager can "unlock" certain rooms in the computer for you.
- If that still doesn't work then I pull the "I've stayed at a Marriott for xx nights so far this year" routine, and ask the manager point blank whether he/she is sure that all the suites/nice rooms are sold out. If those rooms are indeed not available then he/she should take the time to explain it to you. It's up to you whether you believe it, but at this stage I'd usually trust that the person is telling the truth and have done everything they can.
In the past few months I've been upgraded to suites at the JW & Ren in Denver, CY in Miami Beach, Marriott Waterfront in Seattle, Richmond Marriott, Toronto Marriott, and Ren in Hollywood. It works!
My routine for scoring upgrades are pretty simple. Most of the time it results in suites despite what the T&C's say.
- Call a few hours before arrival to ask what upgrades are available. If it's the usual "we've upgraded you to concierge level" then ask to see if they can do better. Ask for a corner room, room with a view, larger room, suites, whatever you can think of. This usually works if the rooms/suites are available.
- If I don't get the desired upgrade during the call, I'll ask for the name of the manager. When I check in I'll repeat the same routine as I did on the phone. If that still doesn't work the clerk may volunteer to get the manager, and if not you should ask for him/her by name. Sometimes the manager can "unlock" certain rooms in the computer for you.
- If that still doesn't work then I pull the "I've stayed at a Marriott for xx nights so far this year" routine, and ask the manager point blank whether he/she is sure that all the suites/nice rooms are sold out. If those rooms are indeed not available then he/she should take the time to explain it to you. It's up to you whether you believe it, but at this stage I'd usually trust that the person is telling the truth and have done everything they can.
In the past few months I've been upgraded to suites at the JW & Ren in Denver, CY in Miami Beach, Marriott Waterfront in Seattle, Richmond Marriott, Toronto Marriott, and Ren in Hollywood. It works!
May 21, 2005 | 7:41 am
#11
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: PHX
Programs: Starwood Hotels, Alaska Air, Delta/Northwest Air
Posts: 73
Originally Posted by free_miles
When I go to a Marriott property I have no idea whether it's owned directly or not, nor do I really want to take the time to find out. As a Plat you should expect and demand consistent service everywhere you go.
My routine for scoring upgrades are pretty simple. Most of the time it results in suites despite what the T&C's say.
- Call a few hours before arrival to ask what upgrades are available. If it's the usual "we've upgraded you to concierge level" then ask to see if they can do better. Ask for a corner room, room with a view, larger room, suites, whatever you can think of. This usually works if the rooms/suites are available.
- If I don't get the desired upgrade during the call, I'll ask for the name of the manager. When I check in I'll repeat the same routine as I did on the phone. If that still doesn't work the clerk may volunteer to get the manager, and if not you should ask for him/her by name. Sometimes the manager can "unlock" certain rooms in the computer for you.
- If that still doesn't work then I pull the "I've stayed at a Marriott for xx nights so far this year" routine, and ask the manager point blank whether he/she is sure that all the suites/nice rooms are sold out. If those rooms are indeed not available then he/she should take the time to explain it to you. It's up to you whether you believe it, but at this stage I'd usually trust that the person is telling the truth and have done everything they can.
In the past few months I've been upgraded to suites at the JW & Ren in Denver, CY in Miami Beach, Marriott Waterfront in Seattle, Richmond Marriott, Toronto Marriott, and Ren in Hollywood. It works!
My routine for scoring upgrades are pretty simple. Most of the time it results in suites despite what the T&C's say.
- Call a few hours before arrival to ask what upgrades are available. If it's the usual "we've upgraded you to concierge level" then ask to see if they can do better. Ask for a corner room, room with a view, larger room, suites, whatever you can think of. This usually works if the rooms/suites are available.
- If I don't get the desired upgrade during the call, I'll ask for the name of the manager. When I check in I'll repeat the same routine as I did on the phone. If that still doesn't work the clerk may volunteer to get the manager, and if not you should ask for him/her by name. Sometimes the manager can "unlock" certain rooms in the computer for you.
- If that still doesn't work then I pull the "I've stayed at a Marriott for xx nights so far this year" routine, and ask the manager point blank whether he/she is sure that all the suites/nice rooms are sold out. If those rooms are indeed not available then he/she should take the time to explain it to you. It's up to you whether you believe it, but at this stage I'd usually trust that the person is telling the truth and have done everything they can.
In the past few months I've been upgraded to suites at the JW & Ren in Denver, CY in Miami Beach, Marriott Waterfront in Seattle, Richmond Marriott, Toronto Marriott, and Ren in Hollywood. It works!
May 24, 2005 | 4:49 pm
#12
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Miami Beach
Posts: 45
Originally Posted by rahmanbar
I don't recall precisely where I first read it, but someone opined that the reason that *wood treated its elites more consistently than Marriott with regards to upgrading was due to Starwood owning and managing its hotels as compared to Marriott where the majority are owned by others and can be self-managed or via a contract by Marriottl.
.
.
In fact, after 6 years as a Marriott Platinum, I can think of only 1 instance where I was upgraded without having to press the issue. (Casa Magna - Cancun: using points). The remaining few times I was upgraded, it was not easy convincing the front desk staff to do so. I found myself calling the Platinum desk just prior to checking in to confirm suite availability, just so I could corner the front desk staff when they told me suites weren't available.
This is the primary reason Marriott has lost most of my business. I don't feel like going through a phone call to the Platinum desk and a 15-20 minute check-in process everytime I enter a hotel, to 'persuade' the staff to upgrade me. I think Marriott should definately strike the upgrade verbiage in their policy, because they certainly don't honor it without a fight.
May 24, 2005 | 10:50 pm
#13
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Toronto (YYZ)
Posts: 6,286
I agree that as a member of SPG I have 9 out of 10 been upgraded to a suite. Compare that to The Marriott where 2 out of 10 I have been given a suite. Sure I get a Conceirge room but a suite I don't remember the last time!
The only reason I stick with Marriott is Corp. Policy. But for Pleasure stays Always SPG!
And yes it does matter who checks you in... I always try and be extra nice
The only reason I stick with Marriott is Corp. Policy. But for Pleasure stays Always SPG!
And yes it does matter who checks you in... I always try and be extra nice
May 25, 2005 | 5:22 am
#14
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 915
Originally Posted by imverge
And yes it does matter who checks you in... I always try and be extra nice
Absolutely.
Being pleasant and reasonable, I agree, nets out to better results than being obnoxious and demanding. (And that goes no matter who is signing the front desk clerk's paycheck.)
But the latter harkens back to the point of and reason I introduced this thread - the seeming inconsistency of interpretation of the MR Platinum/Gold Upgrade T's & C's/Practices/Policies between personnel on Marriott's payroll (by dint of the property being owned or just managed by Marriott International) and those working for a non-Marriott hotel management in a Marriott-flagged brand (particularly Marriott full-service, Renaissance and JW properties).
I posted a direct question regarding it on the companion thread (referenced in post #1, above) but have (not surprisingly) not received a response on what is probably a hot-button issue which engenders complaints to Elite guest service lines.
I hope that anyone from Marriott reading my posts on this subjects understands that they have not been created to be hostile or disagreeable, but rather to reflect the opinion and experience of a Plat with a very long history (overwelmingly pleasant), with Marriott.
May 25, 2005 | 11:51 pm
#15
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Silicon Valley
Programs: Marriott Ambassador
Posts: 1,249
Each person's experience is unique
Originally Posted by gollum
I am Platinum with both Marriott and Starwood. I have found that Starwood definately upgrades more consistently than Marriott.
In fact, after 6 years as a Marriott Platinum, I can think of only 1 instance where I was upgraded without having to press the issue. (Casa Magna - Cancun: using points). The remaining few times I was upgraded, it was not easy convincing the front desk staff to do so. I found myself calling the Platinum desk just prior to checking in to confirm suite availability, just so I could corner the front desk staff when they told me suites weren't available.
This is the primary reason Marriott has lost most of my business. I don't feel like going through a phone call to the Platinum desk and a 15-20 minute check-in process everytime I enter a hotel, to 'persuade' the staff to upgrade me. I think Marriott should definately strike the upgrade verbiage in their policy, because they certainly don't honor it without a fight.
In fact, after 6 years as a Marriott Platinum, I can think of only 1 instance where I was upgraded without having to press the issue. (Casa Magna - Cancun: using points). The remaining few times I was upgraded, it was not easy convincing the front desk staff to do so. I found myself calling the Platinum desk just prior to checking in to confirm suite availability, just so I could corner the front desk staff when they told me suites weren't available.
This is the primary reason Marriott has lost most of my business. I don't feel like going through a phone call to the Platinum desk and a 15-20 minute check-in process everytime I enter a hotel, to 'persuade' the staff to upgrade me. I think Marriott should definately strike the upgrade verbiage in their policy, because they certainly don't honor it without a fight.