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Statistics: How many HON's, SEN's, FTL's

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Statistics: How many HON's, SEN's, FTL's

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Old Oct 16, 2018, 5:08 am
  #46  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
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Programs: LH -- HON Circle **, IHG Spire Elite, Hilton Diamond, 1865 Voyager
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Originally Posted by 1flyer
It is a misconception that you should be rewarded more if you pay more. From LH's perspective, that need not be true.

LH wants to reward people to generate incremental business/to make people more loyal to the brand. That may sometimes involve incentivizing people who bring the most money, but sometimes it may not.

E.g., notice that from a status/HON/select miles perspective, M&M rewards someboby who flies AMS-FRA-WAW on LH in Z more than somebody who flies AMS-WAW on LO in C (or, for that matter, somebody flying FRA-WAW on LH in C). And clearly, there are good reasons for doing so...
Your LO vs LH compare is true if you take in account award miles.
Status/Select/HON miles logics is same for LH and LO
And here we usually (at least I from my origin) see that with LO the cost of Status/Select/HON miles is higher than on LH.
LH owns the Miles&More. LO is just an fully integrated partner.
And need to pay to LH for every single mile client will earn on their flights.
And they will do, because there is lot of people (I also) who sometimes use LO only because it give M&M miles and benefits.

Brand itself is important only for earing more money -- as all, absolutely all the business should on the very ground be.

Incremental business should be valuated ONLY on the case it bring more and more revenue.
Not turnover, but revenue.

Somebody who fly 10 times FRA-LAX-FRA in booking class K is for sure much less valuable than somebody who fly 2 times FRA-LAX-FRA in booking class D or higher.
It's simple mathematics.

Loyalty is important only if the people who bring more and more revenue keep to stay loyal.
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Old Oct 16, 2018, 5:15 am
  #47  
 
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Originally Posted by Raul_R
As First class customer I take on the plane place of about 6-8 economy passengers. But my fare is 4000€ + tax, while eco fare may be 99€ + tax.
So who is more profitable and important for airline?
Agree. And also important: A regular F customer being SEN or HON doesn‘t cost much, because most of he benefits come with the ticket already.

SEN and HON, who fly Eco often and use the benefits, they are really expensive for M&M and LH group.
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Old Oct 16, 2018, 5:17 am
  #48  
 
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Originally Posted by thbe


Agree. And also important: A regular F customer being SEN or HON doesn‘t cost much, because most of he benefits come with the ticket already.

SEN and HON, who fly Eco often and use the benefits, they are really expensive for M&M and LH group.
Absolutely.
And is most probably the prime reason, why all eco tickets give just 0 HON miles.
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Old Oct 16, 2018, 8:06 am
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Raul_R;30320297

As First class customer I take on the plane place of about 6-8 economy passengers. But my fare is[b
4000€ + tax, while eco fare may be 99€ + tax.
So who is more profitable and important for airline?
Who says LH is making so much from your discounted A class tickets? If you're only paying that, I'm quite sure there is someone sitting behind you in C who has paid the same or more and costs LH far less in catering, lounges, miles liability, crewing, fuel, baggage & pax handling etc. Pax on Y fares are many, many more times more profitable than you on those discounted First fares.

LH have done the dumpy dumpy on their F cabins for as long as I have been interested in collecting points.
When you step back and look at it from this perspective, your argument is respectfully, nonsense.
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Old Oct 16, 2018, 8:09 am
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Raul_R
Only problem still exist is that LH do allow *G to Senator Lounge. If they finally push them only to Business lounge, the mission should be completed and real loyal customers happy.
I strongly disagree. A lot of *G are very loyal LH/LX customers (like me) and even better, the other program pays for the benefits.
A lot of people would be really mad if they were pushed out into the already overcrowded Business Lounge.
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Old Oct 16, 2018, 8:15 am
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Nick Art

I strongly disagree. A lot of *G are very loyal LH/LX customers (like me) and even better, the other program pays for the benefits.
A lot of people would be really mad if they were pushed out into the already overcrowded Business Lounge.
This FT myth must be put to bed. As oliver2002 will confirm (and probably even posted it first) the operating carrier pays for the lounge access, not the FFP. So accessing SEN lounge on a LH flight with a A3 Gold and LH pays.

I can also recall him posting the FTL/SEN lounge prices and they were in the low Euros. Like €3 for FTL and €4ish for SEN? Thats years ago...but its not a lot.
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Old Oct 16, 2018, 8:55 am
  #52  
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Originally Posted by hugolover
This FT myth must be put to bed. As oliver2002 will confirm (and probably even posted it first) the operating carrier pays for the lounge access, not the FFP. So accessing SEN lounge on a LH flight with a A3 Gold and LH pays.

I can also recall him posting the FTL/SEN lounge prices and they were in the low Euros. Like €3 for FTL and €4ish for SEN? Thats years ago...but its not a lot.
Interesting.
I’ve been pointed out to be wrong several times claiming that the operating carrier pays.
Thanks for letting me know.
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Old Oct 16, 2018, 9:16 am
  #53  
 
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Originally Posted by Nick Art

I strongly disagree. A lot of *G are very loyal LH/LX customers (like me) and even better, the other program pays for the benefits.
A lot of people would be really mad if they were pushed out into the already overcrowded Business Lounge.
If they are loyal to LH not being SEN, they have some other reasons. Most probably routing-fare reasons.'
I still think that pushing every non-LH *G out of SEN lounge will make Senator status more attractive and finally become a benefit in point of revenue to LH.
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Old Oct 16, 2018, 9:28 am
  #54  
 
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Originally Posted by hugolover
Who says LH is making so much from your discounted A class tickets? If you're only paying that, I'm quite sure there is someone sitting behind you in C who has paid the same or more and costs LH far less in catering, lounges, miles liability, crewing, fuel, baggage & pax handling etc. Pax on Y fares are many, many more times more profitable than you on those discounted First fares.

LH have done the dumpy dumpy on their F cabins for as long as I have been interested in collecting points.
When you step back and look at it from this perspective, your argument is respectfully, nonsense.
4000€ + tax was just an sample, have paid also more.
Yes, fully flex J cost and willa lways cost more than D, same with F to A -- that's logical.
But all of them: A, F, D, C, J are bringing much more revenue than K, L, T
Even P and Z are bringing more revenue.
Common approach is thatg if C and F are full with paid pax, then the flight is in profit even with 0 Y.
But there will also be 200+ Y.
Let them be, I have nothing against them.

Btw, even with 4000€+tax A ticket the net revenue is about around 2800€.
Impossible to get it with ticket cost of 99€ even if there are 10 pax with such a ticket.
I belive that all long-haul tickets below 200€ are subsidized.
There is still cost of human being transported (ca 80 kg) + her/his luggage (in F and with status I can bring 128kg luggage, but never had more than 40 -- in Y, it is without status still 23 kg) + they still need some catering + crew (but they are all small costs finally)

My point is, that is fully logical that airline should care and make FFP care about customers who fly in premium cabins.
And more care of potentially more payers. Not such as will more fly with 99€+tax longhaul ticket.

That is many times reason of op-up's choises. You show the pax how it is in C or F and hopefully he/she will purchase next ticket in higher class cabin.

Was exactly the case with me, how they "teached" me to fly in F.
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Old Oct 16, 2018, 9:48 am
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Raul_R
If they are loyal to LH not being SEN, they have some other reasons. Most probably routing-fare reasons.'
I still think that pushing every non-LH *G out of SEN lounge will make Senator status more attractive and finally become a benefit in point of revenue to LH.
While I see your point (the main reason why I am not SEN but opting for *G with a foreign carrier is exactly that it is easier to achieve and as I am a student cost benefit is something I have to consider, the master plan being once I achieved *G for life to return to M&M and opt for HON), I still think reducing all *G to the Business Lounge would be cruel. It is still the highest Star Alliance status! And the people taking advantage of the system by achieving easy *G are only a small fraction.
I just don’t like the trend of devalueing *G across *A even more. Why not cancel the alliance when airlines only give benefits to their own members and not to the others?
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Old Oct 16, 2018, 11:18 am
  #56  
 
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Originally Posted by Raul_R
Somebody who fly 10 times FRA-LAX-FRA in booking class K is for sure much less valuable than somebody who fly 2 times FRA-LAX-FRA in booking class D or higher.
It's simple mathematics.

Loyalty is important only if the people who bring more and more revenue keep to stay loyal.
Not sure. Airlines earn money by flying full planes. Cheaper fares booked in advance enable airlines to fill up their planes. In addition, revenue per square foot of cabin (after costs) seems to be best in C or PE and certainly not in F.
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Old Oct 16, 2018, 9:39 pm
  #57  
 
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Originally Posted by Nic33
Not sure. Airlines earn money by flying full planes. Cheaper fares booked in advance enable airlines to fill up their planes. In addition, revenue per square foot of cabin (after costs) seems to be best in C or PE and certainly not in F.
So you really think, that if they fill up planes with super-cheap tickets then airline earn money?
Answer is, that then the flight have no revenue.

Is old truth, that fligth become in profit with full house in C and F cabin.
It is quite few people who pay the Y/B/M fares in economy.
Yes, the Y fare is usually higher than P and even Z fare, but they can not count on that people. I believe it is just few pax who need to travel but the company policy does not allow to travel in Business class.

As you can se form following table (HEL to HKG by LH) ticket costs (without taxes):

How the hell can L/T/S/W enad even V/Q bring profit?
If any than only by taxes paid

Fare Basis Airline Booking Trip Type Fare Cabin Effective Expiration Min/Max Advanced
Class Date Date Stay Purchase Req
LNNFI LH L Round-Trip 7.00 (EUR) E 06 / 12M
TNNFI LH T Round-Trip 47.00 (EUR) E 06 / 12M
SNNFI LH S Round-Trip 87.00 (EUR) E 06 / 12M
WNCFI LH W Round-Trip 147.00 (EUR) E 03 / 12M
VNCFI LH V Round-Trip 207.00 (EUR) E 03 / 12M
QNCFI LH Q Round-Trip 267.00 (EUR) E 03 / 12M
HRCFI LH H Round-Trip 367.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
URCFI LH U Round-Trip 497.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
NNCFI LH N Round-Trip 507.00 (EUR) PE 06 / 12M 30
MFFFI LH M Round-Trip 697.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
NRCFI LH N Round-Trip 807.00 (EUR) PE 06 / 12M
BFFFI LH B Round-Trip 1197.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M 10
ERCFI LH E Round-Trip 1207.00 (EUR) PE -- / 12M 14
PNCFI LH P Round-Trip 1207.00 (EUR) B 06 / 12M
ZRCFI LH Z Round-Trip 1507.00 (EUR) B 03 / 12M 10
YFFFI LH Y Round-Trip 1697.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
EFFFI LH E Round-Trip 1707.00 (EUR) PE -- / 12M 10
DFFFI LH D Round-Trip 2007.00 (EUR) B -- / 12M 10
GFFFI LH G Round-Trip 2407.00 (EUR) PE -- / 12M
CFFFI LH C Round-Trip 2507.00 (EUR) B -- / 12M 10
JFFFI LH J Round-Trip 3507.00 (EUR) B -- / 12M
AFFFI LH A Round-Trip 3937.00 (EUR) F -- / 12M
G77RT LH G Round-Trip 5268.00 (EUR) PE -- / 12M
Y77RT LH Y Round-Trip 5268.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
FFFFI LH F Round-Trip 5937.00 (EUR) F -- / 12M
J77RT LH J Round-Trip 6313.00 (EUR) B -- / 12M
F77RT LH F Round-Trip 12653.00 (EUR) F -- / 12M
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Old Oct 18, 2018, 4:44 am
  #58  
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It’s great to have your contributions here, Raul_R, and I hope you continue to enhance the board with all ongoing discussions. About this subject, I know a lot less than you and I’m not an economist! But while you say that the economy passengers only have their super cheap tickets thanks to the business and first passengers, I also believe that the C and F passengers would not be there without the Y flyers. Economy class is not a totally negligible part of the plane, economics or whatever. No airline has really been able to succeed with a business or first only cabin. The one exception, for the moment, appears to be La Compagnie.
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Old Oct 18, 2018, 4:48 am
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Concerto
It’s great to have your contributions here, Raul_R, and I hope you continue to enhance the board with all ongoing discussions. About this subject, I know a lot less than you and I’m not an economist! But while you say that the economy passengers only have their super cheap tickets thanks to the business and first passengers, I also believe that the C and F passengers would not be there without the Y flyers. Economy class is not a totally negligible part of the plane, economics or whatever. No airline has really been able to succeed with a business or first only cabin. The one exception, for the moment, appears to be La Compagnie.
And even La Compagnie was struggeling for quite some time! They had to cancel the London - New York route, despite having a load factor of 77%. So economically they are still rather fragile. I'm quite happy that they seem to be doing quite fine currently
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Old Oct 18, 2018, 4:57 am
  #60  
 
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Originally Posted by Concerto
It’s great to have your contributions here, Raul_R, and I hope you continue to enhance the board with all ongoing discussions. About this subject, I know a lot less than you and I’m not an economist! But while you say that the economy passengers only have their super cheap tickets thanks to the business and first passengers, I also believe that the C and F passengers would not be there without the Y flyers. Economy class is not a totally negligible part of the plane, economics or whatever. No airline has really been able to succeed with a business or first only cabin. The one exception, for the moment, appears to be La Compagnie.
Dear Concerto,

I agree.
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