Rebooking options after cancellation by LH limited by fare class?
Jun 23, 2020, 2:25 pm
#16
Join Date: Mar 2018
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It’s stupid and definitely not right but LH is doing a lot of similar things. My flight in F was cancelled and I was told either take the refund (it will take a few months) or shift to a flight the next day in J class (aircraft without F cabin). When I highlighted that I paid for F and want to fly F the agent just told me that she will end the call unless I agree to one of her two options.
Jun 23, 2020, 5:38 pm
#17
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If your flight is cancelled you have the right to reimbursement, re-routing or return, as well as the right to assistance and a right to compensation. Compensation is due if you were informed less than 14 days prior to the scheduled departure date. The airline has the obligation to prove if and when you were personally informed that the flight was cancelled. If this is not the case you can contact your national authority
for further assistance.However, I agree that this doesn't affect the right to be rebooked but my take on the rebooking rules under EU Reg. 261/04 is that there is no right to be rebooked without payment of fare difference/up-fare when pax decides to be rebooked to a later date convenient to pax. We have discussed this before in various other threads in the wake of Covid-19 so let's not start that discussion again.
Jun 24, 2020, 1:18 am
#18
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It is common grounds that there is no right to compensation even if your flight is cancelled less than 14 days before departure as Covid-19 is considered extraordinary circumstances.
However, I agree that this doesn't affect the right to be rebooked but my take on the rebooking rules under EU Reg. 261/04 is that there is no right to be rebooked without payment of fare difference/up-fare when pax decides to be rebooked to a later date convenient to pax. We have discussed this before in various other threads in the wake of Covid-19 so let's not start that discussion again.
However, I agree that this doesn't affect the right to be rebooked but my take on the rebooking rules under EU Reg. 261/04 is that there is no right to be rebooked without payment of fare difference/up-fare when pax decides to be rebooked to a later date convenient to pax. We have discussed this before in various other threads in the wake of Covid-19 so let's not start that discussion again.
Jun 24, 2020, 1:20 am
#19
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The thing that annoyed me is: the main reason I am choosing to book with Lufthansa for any flights in the near future (FTL aside) is precisely because they offer so many different ways of getting from A to B in a lot of cases. So I can at least hope to be rebooked on a different connection if my flight is cancelled, instead of having to cancel the trip completely.
If this no longer applies, I might as well just book a cheaper carrier and take the risk! Surely LH doesn't want all customers to take the same approach.
If this no longer applies, I might as well just book a cheaper carrier and take the risk! Surely LH doesn't want all customers to take the same approach.
Jun 24, 2020, 5:06 am
#20
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It is common grounds that there is no right to compensation even if your flight is cancelled less than 14 days before departure as Covid-19 is considered extraordinary circumstances.
However, I agree that this doesn't affect the right to be rebooked but my take on the rebooking rules under EU Reg. 261/04 is that there is no right to be rebooked without payment of fare difference/up-fare when pax decides to be rebooked to a later date convenient to pax. We have discussed this before in various other threads in the wake of Covid-19 so let's not start that discussion again.
However, I agree that this doesn't affect the right to be rebooked but my take on the rebooking rules under EU Reg. 261/04 is that there is no right to be rebooked without payment of fare difference/up-fare when pax decides to be rebooked to a later date convenient to pax. We have discussed this before in various other threads in the wake of Covid-19 so let's not start that discussion again.
Article 8
Right to reimbursement or re-routing
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered the choice between:
(a) - reimbursement within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), of the full cost of the ticket at the price at which it was bought, for the part or parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts already made if the flight is no longer serving any purpose in relation to the passenger's original travel plan, together with, when relevant,
- a return flight to the first point of departure, at the earliest opportunity;
(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or
(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience, subject to availability of seats.
2. Paragraph 1(a) shall also apply to passengers whose flights form part of a package, except for the right to reimbursement where such right arises under Directive 90/314/EEC.
3. When, in the case where a town, city or region is served by several airports, an operating air carrier offers a passenger a flight to an airport alternative to that for which the booking was made, the operating air carrier shall bear the cost of transferring the passenger from that alternative airport either to that for which the booking was made, or to another close-by destination agreed with the passenger.
Right to reimbursement or re-routing
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered the choice between:
(a) - reimbursement within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), of the full cost of the ticket at the price at which it was bought, for the part or parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts already made if the flight is no longer serving any purpose in relation to the passenger's original travel plan, together with, when relevant,
- a return flight to the first point of departure, at the earliest opportunity;
(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or
(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience, subject to availability of seats.
2. Paragraph 1(a) shall also apply to passengers whose flights form part of a package, except for the right to reimbursement where such right arises under Directive 90/314/EEC.
3. When, in the case where a town, city or region is served by several airports, an operating air carrier offers a passenger a flight to an airport alternative to that for which the booking was made, the operating air carrier shall bear the cost of transferring the passenger from that alternative airport either to that for which the booking was made, or to another close-by destination agreed with the passenger.
Jun 24, 2020, 6:01 am
#21
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However, I agree that this doesn't affect the right to be rebooked but my take on the rebooking rules under EU Reg. 261/04 is that there is no right to be rebooked without payment of fare difference/up-fare when pax decides to be rebooked to a later date convenient to pax
Airlines have total control over future fares. They can arbitrarily hike up rates or make cheaper booking classes completely disappear. Hence, the airline can milk the customer as much as they want. If you opinion holds up in court, the passenger protection in EC261/2004 article 8c will be completely worthless to the passenger.
Moreover, it would "legalize" a new airline business model -> selling cheap fares, cancelling the flight and then forcing passengers to pay a much higher fare at a later stage.
Jun 24, 2020, 6:42 am
#22
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I beg to differ. According to your interpretation there is no difference between rerouting under art. 8. 1 (b) and 8. 1 (c) - but look at the different wordings!; in particular the restriction "subject to availability of seats" in art. 8. 1 (c). The only reasonable interpretation of "subject to availability of seats" is that rebooking under art. 8. 1 (c) is subject same booking class /RBD being available; otherwise you are applying the more generous conditions as are applicable for rebookings under art. 8.1. (b).
I'm sorry but your arguments about the risk of airlines misusing the possibility to demand payment of fare difference, does not change the wording of EU reg. 261/04 art. 8 nor the law.
I'm sorry but your arguments about the risk of airlines misusing the possibility to demand payment of fare difference, does not change the wording of EU reg. 261/04 art. 8 nor the law.
Jun 24, 2020, 7:19 am
#23
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I think defining availability of seats to availability to booking class is quite a stretch.
Furthermore the german courts seem to agree with me and has under threat of punishment ordered LH to not demand such upfares for cancelled flights that are being rebooked at a later date convenient to pax.
Furthermore the german courts seem to agree with me and has under threat of punishment ordered LH to not demand such upfares for cancelled flights that are being rebooked at a later date convenient to pax.
Jun 24, 2020, 7:36 am
#24
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8.1 (c) essentially requires the carrier to offer accommodation only on its own fleet. It is likely the cheaper option for the airline, the wider availability of seats meaning that selection of one does not carry a high opportunity cost, and there is no question of buying seats from other carriers
Sadly the devil of the Regulation is in its drafting.
However, given that a German court has decided that "subject to availability of seats" in 8.1(c) applies to physical seats rather than a virtual construct of yield managers; and in spite of the airline appealing this decision, I'd say it is an interpretation that holds more water than yours.
Jun 24, 2020, 7:48 am
#25
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...
However, given that a German court has decided that "subject to availability of seats" in 8.1(c) applies to physical seats rather than a virtual construct of yield managers; and in spite of the airline appealing this decision, I'd say it is an interpretation that holds more water than yours.
However, given that a German court has decided that "subject to availability of seats" in 8.1(c) applies to physical seats rather than a virtual construct of yield managers; and in spite of the airline appealing this decision, I'd say it is an interpretation that holds more water than yours.
Ironically, it was the refusal of the airline to rebook me as I wished without additional fare which caused me to cancel my booking completely and force through a refund. Rebooking me would have helped Lufthansa's cashflow as they would have been able to retain my money.
Jun 24, 2020, 7:56 am
#26
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Not only this, but this interpretation is borne out because it has been practiced this way by many airlines for a while, including Lufthansa, until the COVID pandemic. Now, suddenly, Lufthansa is looking to upfare passengers. Indeed, individual agents interpret it differently and some customers get rebooked in other revenue booking classes and others do not.
Ironically, it was the refusal of the airline to rebook me as I wished without additional fare which caused me to cancel my booking completely and force through a refund. Rebooking me would have helped Lufthansa's cashflow as they would have been able to retain my money.
Ironically, it was the refusal of the airline to rebook me as I wished without additional fare which caused me to cancel my booking completely and force through a refund. Rebooking me would have helped Lufthansa's cashflow as they would have been able to retain my money.
It is baffling that Lufthansa doesn't want to hang onto the cash and tuck passengers into a seat on a near-empty flight some months hence.
But no more baffling than choosing to fight this particular battle in the middle of an existential crisis,
Jun 24, 2020, 8:02 am
#27
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I agree and it would have done their reputation no harm at all. Now, they have people actively willing them into bankruptcy, having had their perceived corporate arrogance confirmed.
Jun 24, 2020, 8:33 am
#28
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Wait a sec: you booked a new flight with a code of a previously cancelled flight, and this new flight was cancelled again ?
Then you can INSIST on being re-booked on any flight at your convenience based on EU passenger rights:
If your flight is cancelled you have the right to reimbursement, re-routing or return, as well as the right to assistance and a right to compensation. Compensation is due if you were informed less than 14 days prior to the scheduled departure date. The airline has the obligation to prove if and when you were personally informed that the flight was cancelled. If this is not the case you can contact your national authority for further assistance.
Then you can INSIST on being re-booked on any flight at your convenience based on EU passenger rights:
If your flight is cancelled you have the right to reimbursement, re-routing or return, as well as the right to assistance and a right to compensation. Compensation is due if you were informed less than 14 days prior to the scheduled departure date. The airline has the obligation to prove if and when you were personally informed that the flight was cancelled. If this is not the case you can contact your national authority
for further assistance.
Jun 24, 2020, 9:49 am
#29
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The 14-day notice and thus the compensation argument have nothing to do with this matter. It seems clear and the EC has issued Guidance making it clear, albeit in a non-binding manner, that Covid-19 is an "extraordinary circumstance" and accordingly the failure of notice and attendant compensation requirement does not apply.
None of this has anything to do with rebooking / refund which is an entirely separate aspect of the Regulation.
None of this has anything to do with rebooking / refund which is an entirely separate aspect of the Regulation.
Jun 24, 2020, 12:34 pm
#30
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The 14-day notice and thus the compensation argument have nothing to do with this matter. It seems clear and the EC has issued Guidance making it clear, albeit in a non-binding manner, that Covid-19 is an "extraordinary circumstance" and accordingly the failure of notice and attendant compensation requirement does not apply.
None of this has anything to do with rebooking / refund which is an entirely separate aspect of the Regulation.
None of this has anything to do with rebooking / refund which is an entirely separate aspect of the Regulation.