thbe

You think, two ways to win at court is not enough?

Btw: There was a passenger on a flight BCN-FRA in C (2h), who got a Manner waffle and a warm can of coke instead of the promised hot meal and wine. The passenger got a compensation of EUR 200 for that. Do you think, a meal on a 2h LH flight in C is worth EUR 200? Or was he aiming to hurt windmills?

kttosia

You can also try to write to SN on Facebook. Good luck!

LondonElite

You're throwing a whole bunch of things into the same pot, and not making much sense. My point is that EC261 is not there to pay up when a 25 minute schedule change messes up bookings on separate tickets.

thbe

Your point was also, that EU261 is not about minor delays. And you are 100% wrong at that point.

You should read the posts (and maybe EU261 as well). I've said, that at court the OP will win very likely, because it was a significant change. And the example about the missing hot meal shows, that also the worth of a hot meal depends on the individual situation. In that case the passenger said, that he booked business because he wanted to get a hot meal. In general EUR 200,- is not the worth of a LH Business class meal on a 2h flight. But it was in that case for the passenger. In the same way the change of 25 minutes is significant for the OP, even if it could be not significant for others. In the guidelines of airlines you will find the time difference only, when everyone gets the right to get the ticket refunded.

Eu261 is an optional extra. The arguments about EU261 are less clear than about a significant change, but SN will avoid a judgement about it, because it were the end of schedule changes.

And what you are talking about the OPs own fault is just nonsense. You think, airlines have the right to change schedules for less than 2h. So if you book a connection on separate tickets, from your point of view you always need a connection time of at 2 x 1:55h plus the time for connecting as one fight could be rescheduled 1:55h later and the other flight could rescheduled 1:55h earlier. So what you say is, that everyone who books connections on separate tickets with a connection time of less than 5h is a happy-go-lucky fellow. That hasn't much to do with the real world.

gonebabygone

Thanks again everyone for the helpful suggestions.

And especially for the entertaining discussion! It's always good to see a diversity of opinions and to be reminded that despite how convinced we might be that we are in the right that there is always another perspective. It's good for humility

wildace

Their Twitter social media team has been really helpful in the past. Even got me seats assigned on a plane long before check-in. Try finding a way to DM them... maybe they can do something. But don't count in it... just know you won't be getting that same call center again.

LondonElite

Can you please distill your point(s) into one or two short sentences?

To me it's quite simple. The OP had two separate tickets, not a connection, so arguing that one affected the other will go nowhere. By any reasonable definition, 25 minutes is a minor timing change. Airlines themselves see no difference 15 minutes either way. To call that a cancellation, or its equivalent, is disingenuous. Is a 20 minutes change significant? what about 12 minutes? I can't see where you would attach an EC261 case here.

thbe

For the OP a schedule change of 25 minutes is a significant change. He doesn't have to accept an one-sided significant change of the contract.

It's likely, that at court a schedule change is considered as a cancelation plus offer to reroute in the meaning of EU261.

chris63

Yes, I agree, no point in checking in 25 minutes late, the airlines determine minutes count in a contract, they should not have it both ways

trooper

So, a 5 minute schedule change? You MUST argue that is an entitlement to a refund too.... right?

Flying Lawyer

if I go to London for the day 25 minutes are significant and I book flights because I expect that they go in time I think it is a more than reasonable expectation. As an airline passenger I do not have to expect that the airline considers a breach of contract as not significant.

LondonElite

To take your point, would you, in case the announcement of a 25 minute delay was made, seriously walk out of the airport and abandon your trip? Would you expect a full refund because of this effective ’cancellation’?

I stand by the no hope situation for EC261 as this is concerned.

thbe

Of course there are delays of 25 minutes or less, where I would have canceled my ticket, if I knew about that delay weeks/months before.

Yes, and that is ok. It would be more interesting to know any arguments for your point of view.

EU261's rules about a delay depends on the scheduled time. Its rules about cancellation depends on the scheduled time. Its rules about compensation depends on the scheduled time. Delays, cancellations, compensations: That are very - if not the most important - parts of EU261. Why should the airlines have the one-sided right to change the legal situation with the consequences, to reduce the passenger's rights?

You don't have to agree about my view in detail, but it's very clear, that schedule changes concern EC261. But you don't find the term "schedule change" in EU261. What are courts doing in cases like that? They apply the existing regulations analogously. Easy analogy is cancellation with the offer of rerouting.

LondonElite

You keep banging on about a 25-minute change being something major. Do you live in the fairyland where every flight actually leaves the gate at exactly the published time and never has to wait to get airborne? You are very lucky. And as for this minor delay impacting separate tickets, people who put themselves in that position need to man-up and take responsibility for their poor or risky decision, rather than blaming someone and expecting handouts.

fassy

Sure, 25 minutes won’t make a difference in the greater scale of things for most people.

But OP bought a product with some defined properties, i.e. a flight on a specific day, at a specific time in a specific class.

If SN decides to unilaterally change that product, even by moving the departure time by a minute, they do not hold up to their end of the contract. He gets a product with different properties than agreed at time of purchase.

There are actually some very busy routes where a plane leaves every 30 minutes or so, e.g. MEL-SYD at 8:45, 9:00, 9:30 and so on. Would Quantas care if OP booked the 8:45 flight but then unilaterally decides he wants to board the 9:00 flight? Since... it is just at 15 minute difference? They will deny boarding since the OP would try to use a different product than bought.

And yes, a schedule change can happen. And as said, for 99.9% of travelers usually not a big deal. Especially if it is just a minor change. But 0.1% might care and the very least is, to offer these few pax either a rebooking or refund.

And by the way, there is a huge difference between a planed and intentional schedule change ahead of time and an operational delay.