Did LH change its operational upgrade logic?
Oct 11, 2015, 11:24 am
#16
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,941
To the previous three posters: If I do some soul searching, three things pushed me out of LH:
1) The move from relationship to transactional regarding operational upgrades
2) The introduction of the "LH-mandated" bogus fees
3) The general devaluation of the M&M program
On my routes, regular operational upgrades were pretty much part of the package that LH offered me (~60% operational upgrade ratio). This ratio turned pretty much to zero after transition to a transactional model. Now I have 40-60% on EK and EY.
If LH has moved on 1), it makes me reconsider giving LH another try - given the fact that all other airlines have meanwhile also downgraded their FF programs.
1) The move from relationship to transactional regarding operational upgrades
2) The introduction of the "LH-mandated" bogus fees
3) The general devaluation of the M&M program
On my routes, regular operational upgrades were pretty much part of the package that LH offered me (~60% operational upgrade ratio). This ratio turned pretty much to zero after transition to a transactional model. Now I have 40-60% on EK and EY.
If LH has moved on 1), it makes me reconsider giving LH another try - given the fact that all other airlines have meanwhile also downgraded their FF programs.
Oct 11, 2015, 3:17 pm
#17
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: BCT. Formerly known as attorney28
Programs: LH HON,BA GGL GfL,Hyatt LT Glob,Mrtt LT P,Hilt LT D,IC Amb,Acc P,GHA Tit,LHW Strlg,Sixt/Av/Hz D/Pres
Posts: 6,827
I never fully left LH, but this was also the ONE thing that annoyed me the most, by far, of all the "enhancements". I went from being HON to BA GGL (and CCR). Part of it were the routes I had to take and simply much better fares at full Avios/Tier points, but part of it was also the "finger" by LH to its status guests by this particular policy. I even talked to someone who works at M&M about it and he just laughed and said, yes, this was discussed quite heavily. It was certainly not an accident.
Oct 12, 2015, 2:48 am
#18
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,941
I never fully left LH, but this was also the ONE thing that annoyed me the most, by far, of all the "enhancements". I went from being HON to BA GGL (and CCR). Part of it were the routes I had to take and simply much better fares at full Avios/Tier points, but part of it was also the "finger" by LH to its status guests by this particular policy. I even talked to someone who works at M&M about it and he just laughed and said, yes, this was discussed quite heavily. It was certainly not an accident.
Oct 12, 2015, 3:14 am
#19
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,238
Well... the switch to the new DCS made them rework the grading list logic, the valuation of the individual segment thing was added because of the upcoming HBO fares and the fact that a fare class doesn't guarantee the same value (comparing say D from CAI and D from Munich).
Oct 12, 2015, 3:32 am
#20
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: ORD
Programs: BA, AA, SQ, UA, AC, WS, MR TIT
Posts: 8,663
Well... the switch to the new DCS made them rework the grading list logic, the valuation of the individual segment thing was added because of the upcoming HBO fares and the fact that a fare class doesn't guarantee the same value (comparing say D from CAI and D from Munich).
Oct 12, 2015, 4:56 am
#21
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,238
Stars are immaterial in this op-up game (aka grading list). RCS paraphrased his understanding VFT as follows:
The PCV is calculated based on your ranking in the pecking order, the booking class of your ticket and the valuation of your segment coupon. The lower booking classes in Y/E/C are weighed less, which makes upgrades in L/T/K/X, N, P/Z/I less likely. Not completely unlikely though. See the many reports in the op-up thread: N->C upgrades are very common, mainly because the RM algorithm hasn't got enough data to make reliable forecast, and L/T/K upgrades have also been reported. The upgraded C ticket which is technically in I maybe figure in the grading list because the valuation is based on the fare paid for the original economy ticket. ie if a SEN upgrades a 1800€ H or 2300€ E fare ticket with an evoucher or GPU, s/he still may rank higher than a SEN on a P fare which cost 1799€.
So, nun greifbare und belastbare Details:
Die Priorisierung erfolgt in Altea quasi vollautomatisch, außer ein Mitarbeiter grätscht hier ganz bewusst "von Hand" hinein und vergibt außer der Reihe von Hand irgendwelche Upgrades. Im Normalfall ist das neue System darauf getrimmt, Passagiere von der Warteliste als auch Passagiere die ein Upgrade bekommen wollen (= "bezahlt" mit Meilen/E-Vouchern) sowie Passagiere die ein Upgrade bekommen müssen (= "Operational Gradings") automatisiert abzuarbeiten.
Dabei gilt nach aktuellem Stand die folgende Hierarchie (welche seitens Lufthansa jederzeit geändert werden kann - und die Tatsache, dass diese Priorisierung hier im VFT nachzulesen ist löst natürlich keine Rechtsansprüche auf irgendwelche Upgrades aus... - außerdem zu beachten, dass es zwischendrin auch ID-Passagierkategorien mit "Must Ride"-Priorität gibt, die Vorrang vor regulär zahlenden Passagieren und auch Vielfliegern haben können, welche hier in der Liste nicht aufgeführt sind):
Bei mehreren Passagieren innerhalb der selben Prio-Kategorie entscheidet dann der sog. individuelle PCV-Wert (Perceived Customer Value bzw. Process Customer Value). Jedem Passagier wird in Altea anhand diverser Kriterien (u.a. Vielfliegerstatus, Buchungsklasse / Ticketwert) für jeden einzelnen Flug ein individueller PCV-Wert zugewiesen - dieser bestimmt dann innerhalb der Prio-Gruppe die Reihenfolge.
Was "Operational Gradings" als auch "Courtesy Upgrades" betrifft, so sind die Buchungsklassen Z/P/R/I in der Business Class, die Buchungsklasse N in der Premium Economy Class sowie die Buchungsklassen T/L/K/X in der Economy Class mit einer niedrigeren Priorität versehen. In Altea ist ein entsprechender Mechanismus integriert, der bei notwendigen Upgrades in der Regel das "Operational Upgrade" zunächst an einen Passagier in einer höherwertigen Buchungsklasse vergibt.
Beispiel: HON 1 gebucht in Z mit hohem PCV-Wert, HON 2 gebucht in D mit mittlerem PCV-Wert, HON 3 gebucht in D mit hohem PCV-Wert. Das System würde bei notwendigen Op-Ups in die First zunächst HON 3 upgraden (hoher PCV-Wert und keine Buchungsklasse mit bewusst niedriger Priorisierung), und dann HON 2 vor HON 1 (da HON 1 aufgrund der Buchungsklasse Z was Op-Ups betrifft künstlich die niedrigste Priorität bekommt, trotz hohem PCV-Wert).
Die Priorisierung erfolgt in Altea quasi vollautomatisch, außer ein Mitarbeiter grätscht hier ganz bewusst "von Hand" hinein und vergibt außer der Reihe von Hand irgendwelche Upgrades. Im Normalfall ist das neue System darauf getrimmt, Passagiere von der Warteliste als auch Passagiere die ein Upgrade bekommen wollen (= "bezahlt" mit Meilen/E-Vouchern) sowie Passagiere die ein Upgrade bekommen müssen (= "Operational Gradings") automatisiert abzuarbeiten.
Dabei gilt nach aktuellem Stand die folgende Hierarchie (welche seitens Lufthansa jederzeit geändert werden kann - und die Tatsache, dass diese Priorisierung hier im VFT nachzulesen ist löst natürlich keine Rechtsansprüche auf irgendwelche Upgrades aus... - außerdem zu beachten, dass es zwischendrin auch ID-Passagierkategorien mit "Must Ride"-Priorität gibt, die Vorrang vor regulär zahlenden Passagieren und auch Vielfliegern haben können, welche hier in der Liste nicht aufgeführt sind):
- HON (First Class)
- SEN / Star Gold (First Class)
- FTL / Star Silver (First Class)
- Basiskunde (First Class)
- First Class Interkont-Anschluss (relevant auf Zubringer-Flügen)
- HON (Business Class)
- HON (Premium Economy)
- HON (Economy Class)
- SEN / Star Gold (Business Class)
- SEN / Star Gold (Premium Economy)
- SEN / Star Gold (Economy Class)
- FTL / Star Silver (Business Class)
- Basiskunde (Business Class)
- FTL / Star Silver (Premium Economy)
- Basiskunde (Premium Economy)
- FTL / Star Silver (Economy Class)
- Basiskunde (Economy Class)
Bei mehreren Passagieren innerhalb der selben Prio-Kategorie entscheidet dann der sog. individuelle PCV-Wert (Perceived Customer Value bzw. Process Customer Value). Jedem Passagier wird in Altea anhand diverser Kriterien (u.a. Vielfliegerstatus, Buchungsklasse / Ticketwert) für jeden einzelnen Flug ein individueller PCV-Wert zugewiesen - dieser bestimmt dann innerhalb der Prio-Gruppe die Reihenfolge.
Was "Operational Gradings" als auch "Courtesy Upgrades" betrifft, so sind die Buchungsklassen Z/P/R/I in der Business Class, die Buchungsklasse N in der Premium Economy Class sowie die Buchungsklassen T/L/K/X in der Economy Class mit einer niedrigeren Priorität versehen. In Altea ist ein entsprechender Mechanismus integriert, der bei notwendigen Upgrades in der Regel das "Operational Upgrade" zunächst an einen Passagier in einer höherwertigen Buchungsklasse vergibt.
Beispiel: HON 1 gebucht in Z mit hohem PCV-Wert, HON 2 gebucht in D mit mittlerem PCV-Wert, HON 3 gebucht in D mit hohem PCV-Wert. Das System würde bei notwendigen Op-Ups in die First zunächst HON 3 upgraden (hoher PCV-Wert und keine Buchungsklasse mit bewusst niedriger Priorisierung), und dann HON 2 vor HON 1 (da HON 1 aufgrund der Buchungsklasse Z was Op-Ups betrifft künstlich die niedrigste Priorität bekommt, trotz hohem PCV-Wert).
Oct 12, 2015, 11:54 am
#23
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: OSL/IAH/ZRH (time, not preference)
Programs: UA1K, LH GM, AA EXP->GM
Posts: 38,265
2) SEN / Star Gold (First Class)
9) SEN / Star Gold (Business Class)
10) SEN / Star Gold (Premium Economy)
11) SEN / Star Gold (Economy Class)
<snip>
Bei mehreren Passagieren innerhalb der selben Prio-Kategorie entscheidet dann der sog. individuelle PCV-Wert (Perceived Customer Value bzw. Process Customer Value).
9) SEN / Star Gold (Business Class)
10) SEN / Star Gold (Premium Economy)
11) SEN / Star Gold (Economy Class)
<snip>
Bei mehreren Passagieren innerhalb der selben Prio-Kategorie entscheidet dann der sog. individuelle PCV-Wert (Perceived Customer Value bzw. Process Customer Value).
But I do indeed wonder how the new Crystal Ball decides on the Customer Value of an alliance *G. There is no way that LH can have a rational estimate for this at hand. I guess at it is the least of all factors, it can simply be neglected.
..if a SEN upgrades a 1800€ H or 2300€ E fare ticket with an evoucher or GPU, s/he still may rank higher than a SEN on a P fare which cost 1799€.
That leaves the interesting question of the ranking of upgrade instruments in the algorithm - miles vs GPUs vs eVouchers vs Alliance miles.
Oct 12, 2015, 1:29 pm
#24
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,756
I guess the customer value is purely based on that one transaction - i.e. the booking class and fare paid for the flight in question.
Oct 12, 2015, 6:50 pm
#25
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: LAX
Programs: UA:1k; MR: PLT; Hilton: Gold
Posts: 1,324
Now I fully realize there probably weren't many people like myself, but worth noting the logic was sound. But totally understand as a M&M elite being angered by this - I would be too.
Oct 12, 2015, 7:35 pm
#26
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: OSL/IAH/ZRH (time, not preference)
Programs: UA1K, LH GM, AA EXP->GM
Posts: 38,265
Oct 15, 2015, 4:02 pm
#27
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,941
This is just an outsiders view, but they got my business because of it. My travel is very last minute in paid J (usually C) around $8,000 a ticket. The first time I was op-uped I was pleasantly surprised. Once I researched why I was upgraded before M&M elites, I moved all my international travel to LH (most was on UA before). I didn't see much difference between the LH and UA product (I know there is) so I'd rather have a shot at LH F which puts Ua to shame. It paid off as I was about 60%, with the only times I didn't get op-uped was when I flew on a midweek day and the flight wasn't very full.
Now I fully realize there probably weren't many people like myself, but worth noting the logic was sound. But totally understand as a M&M elite being angered by this - I would be too.
Now I fully realize there probably weren't many people like myself, but worth noting the logic was sound. But totally understand as a M&M elite being angered by this - I would be too.
Oct 16, 2015, 2:00 am
#29
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London
Programs: Hilton, IHG - BA, GA, LH, QR, SV, TK
Posts: 17,008
If you're suggesting that a 60% upgrade success rate is routine for a traveller, then there's something seriously wrong with Lufthansa's yield management system.
Oct 16, 2015, 2:22 am
#30
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,859
For example, travel policy for C travel and not F.
That's a very narrow window though.