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-   -   The KLM erosion thread (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/klm-flying-dutchman/752349-klm-erosion-thread.html)

Mofomat Nov 5, 2007 10:34 am


Originally Posted by likkie_lakkie (Post 8678769)
Hmm, I read. that they have been upgraded very recently.

Are all your views based on KLM press releases?



Originally Posted by likkie_lakkie (Post 8678769)
Unfortunately the bizarre high oil prices and Government taxes are to blame, not the airlines.

This is where you are wrong, again.

A few years ago KLM would give you a free ticket. They would even cover the cost of the airport taxes.

Changing the policy on airport taxes is disappointing, but understandable. However, KLM also charge you the extortionate fuel surcharges which are NOT a tax. A tax is something which is collected on behalf of another party, such as airport passenger duty, or government taxes.

U.S. airlines for example are not allowed to class fuel surcharges as a tax, and they have to be part of the airfare.

Often a "free" ticket on KLM is more expensive than a revenue ticket on other airlines.

frankvb Nov 5, 2007 10:57 am


Originally Posted by Mofomat (Post 8679440)
However, KLM also charge you the extortionate fuel surcharges which are NOT a tax. A tax is something which is collected on behalf of another party, such as airport passenger duty, or government taxes.

U.S. airlines for example are not allowed to class fuel surcharges as a tax, and they have to be part of the airfare.

Fully agreed with you that airlines should not charge fuel (and whatever else) surcharges for award ticket. What also makes me mad is the fact that when you cancel a non-flexible flight, those fuel surcharges suddenly seem to become part of the fare and are not refunded (don't know if this is KLM policy however). But just for a point of balance, all airlines that have fuel surcharges for revenue tickets, also do this for award tickets (unless someone knows an exception?). Unfortunately KLM is by no means alone in this.

Still, it is an erosion as such, compared to either the completely free award tickets (think I had one of those, which defines my age just a bit more...) or to just charging the airport and government taxes & fees.

Mofomat Nov 5, 2007 11:36 am


Originally Posted by frankvb (Post 8679558)
But just for a point of balance, all airlines that have fuel surcharges for revenue tickets, also do this for award tickets (unless someone knows an exception?)

I believe U.S. carriers for one do not charge fuel surcharges on redemption tickets. Would like someone to confirm this however.

johan rebel Nov 5, 2007 12:37 pm


Originally Posted by frankvb (Post 8679558)
when you cancel a non-flexible flight, those fuel surcharges suddenly seem to become part of the fare and are not refunded (don't know if this is KLM policy however).

You will be pleased to learn that KL has introduced this customer friendly policy effective October 1.

Johan

Zembla Nov 5, 2007 2:08 pm

I am still with you and continue to upgrade this list.
We seem to have bumped into 1 or 2 issues where KLM seems to part us of money without any logic, product or extra service behind it. I have marked them with an (!)
If somehow it can be proved they are not true, please let it it know ASAP, because I think these issues weigh even heavier than the ongoing erosion issues.

WearyBizTrvlr Nov 5, 2007 2:14 pm


Originally Posted by Mofomat (Post 8679746)
I believe U.S. carriers for one do not charge fuel surcharges on revenue tickets. Would like someone to confirm this however.

I only have experience with AA, but they do not make you pay the fuel surcharge on redemption tickets. As an example, a ticket in J FRA-ORD on AA costs $60 in taxes. Not exactly free, but at least they only charge the taxes that they need to pay to others. The KLM fuel surcharge goes directly into KLM's pocket and is entirely under KLM's control.

WearyBizTrvlr Nov 5, 2007 2:51 pm

I generally agree that food and drinks have improved at the lounge, but they're not exactly of outstanding quality. Besides, the chocomel never returned. I still miss the old individually packed bars of Gouda cheese, and I haven't seen popcorn in the lounge in a while either. Perhaps it's one of those rotating time-of-the-day snacks though.

I especially miss the old RoyalWing lounge in the D pier, which was ideal for the London flights. Nowadays of course I'm usually on VLM or BA, but still.

Priority boarding has deteriorated. Although it never did work on short haul, in the olden days they'd at least make an effort on long haul. Remeber the colored cards and the lights? They still make the announcement that they'll start boarding with business class, but not even a token effort is made to enforce it.

yocko Nov 5, 2007 4:47 pm


Originally Posted by WearyBizTrvlr (Post 8680936)

I especially miss the old RoyalWing lounge in the D pier, which was ideal for the London flights. Nowadays of course I'm usually on VLM or BA, but still.

the story of our life ;-)

frankvb Nov 6, 2007 4:23 am


Originally Posted by Mofomat (Post 8679746)
I believe U.S. carriers for one do not charge fuel surcharges on revenue tickets. Would like someone to confirm this however.

In most cases that is true.

What my point was that airlines either do not have fuel surcharges (either on revenue/award tickets), or they do have them, and will charge on both revenue and award tickets.

Mofomat Nov 6, 2007 4:30 am


Originally Posted by frankvb (Post 8683695)
In most cases that is true.

What my point was that airlines either do not have fuel surcharges (either on revenue/award tickets), or they do have them, and will charge on both revenue and award tickets.

Actually, I've just re-read what I put in my post, and what I meant to say was redemption tickets and not revenue tickets.

pbarnette Nov 6, 2007 6:02 am


Originally Posted by dodgeflyer (Post 8672735)
They are not BA when it comes to SPA treatments etc... but then again, you would not make the same level with BA for the same amount of flights/price.

Living in Mainland Europe, you will reach BA silver with one TATL trip in J + one relatively cheap return in J to London. This gives you most of the benefits of ST+ with significantly less travel. Indeed, I have trouble thinking of a program that is "easier" to reach elite status on. That being said, as you mentioned, you will get no status if you fly BA solely in Y, but many at the BA board swear by premium economy, which will also get you status pretty quickly - just over 2 TATL trips.

Gajan Nov 6, 2007 6:59 am

What about that it takes 6 weeks to get the refund of your taxes when cancelling your award ticket?

That I also find a rip off, as it should be refunded just as quick as taking the money from you!

Gajan

Klm is Dead - Long Live KLM Nov 6, 2007 7:46 am

Improvements:

+ Much improved selection of pristine French language newspapers and magazines in the AMS Schiphol lounges

+ No longer advertising misleading "exclusive" prices in Dutch market after being forced to stop by the competition and fairness in advertising authorities


Erosion:

- Tremendous waste and pollution throwing away all the unread, unwanted French language periodicals in the lounges

- Much reduced selection of English and Dutch language newspapers and magazines in the lounges

- No more bottled water in the lounges

- No more champagne in the AMS lounges

- Shower capacity in AMS lounge does not match current policy nor meet related demand

-

Klm is Dead - Long Live KLM Nov 6, 2007 8:00 am


Originally Posted by likkie_lakkie (Post 8677713)
Improved:

* Breakfast for Economy Class passengers on intercontinental flights


How specifically has the breakfast improved over the years?

I remember before always being served on my North Atlantic KL Y flights:

a hot breakfast dish such as an omelette or pancakes,
unlimited bread and
hot croissants with butter and jam,
cheese and/or ham,
fresh juice,
coffee, tea,
fresh fruit or fruit salad,
yoghurt.

And beer and wine or bloody mary's if you asked for them.

--- What have they done to improve on this?

YVR Cockroach Nov 6, 2007 10:15 am


Originally Posted by pbarnette (Post 8683952)
That being said, as you mentioned, you will get no status if you fly BA solely in Y

You can/will, but only on the more expensive fares (Y B H outside the U.K.).


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