Hello,

First post on the forums. More a *A flyer, I recently flew several flights with KLM on their Europe Select class. Although C fare, they claim it's not a business class, but rather an enhanced economy class.

My experience with KLM Europe Select:

* fare cost the same as in *A
* service was quite good (on each flight I was greeted with my last name, impressive)
* middle seat not empty (dissapointing), although I had the fortune that the first row was empty
* catering - quite good, hot meal, choice between two dishes, even an ice-cream at the end.

However, what I noticed, or at least what it looked like to me is that I was the only C class paying customer in the cabin. Let me explain, apart from me, it seemed that everybody else had been upgrades to the front cabin. I'd be very surprised that all those mothers with small children and crying babies were paying full fare tickets, but had rather been upgraded due to lack of space in Y cabin.

This + no empty middle seat somehow dilutes the value of the Europe Select service. What are your thoughts? Am I wrong?

welcome to FT!

You must be confused. Europe select is considered business class by KLM, they don't serve hot dishes, there is no choice of dishes and i have never been called by my last name on the past fifty flights in ES.

The only thing that was correct of your description of Europe Select were the mothers and babies, they are what we lovingly call non-rev's here on flyer talk

Hi,

Thanks for the welcome. Actually, I am not confused:

* they called me by last name on most flights (I even got a survey on some flights, in which one of the questions was: Did the crew call you by last name)
* it's not considered business class. Given that I fly LH a lot, and the middle seat is always free, I asked one of the crew members why this was not the case with KLM, and they explained me that given that it's no longer considered business class, the middle seat would be occupied. They were even instructed to say that the KLM C fare was for this reason less expensive than another airline on the same route (which I had to disagree with)
*I did have a choice between two hot dishes (all flights 2h+, on B737)

However, I don't understand the mothers and babies part. Why do they upgrade these sort of passengers. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against them, but when I am traveling on business (for work), I expect some calm in the cabin. I've never seen this kind of things on any other airline. Worst comes to worst, they move the curtain front

I think this whole thing about calling a C class 'Europe Select' and telling you it is not business class, is a bit of a word game... To be honest IMHO the crew is just telling you some nonsense (to keep my expression polite...).

I agree that in reality it is more like an enhanced economy product, however any website (perhaps except the KLM website...) will refer to it as 'business class'. So if they really wanted to downgrade it, they should have changed the fare bucket designators.

BTW: Welcome to FT FlyingSerb!

That is incorrect! I flew ES 2 days ago and there was a choice of lamb and pasta (both hot meals), and there was ice cream after that. Tons of booze and very attentive service. (Coach seats though) It was a 3 hour flight (OTP-AMS) and I was delighted to score an op-up. ES for puddle-jumpers (i.e. short flights) is a different story, but that's not the norm.

As for the nomenclature, I think they chose "Europe Select" for a good reason: it's not saying "enhanced coach", but it's not saying "business class" either. It leaves room in either direction. (When it comes to buying a ticket, it's sold as business, but when it comes to flying, it's enhanced coach.) From a marketing perspective, it's pretty slick. I wouldn't pay for ES out of my own pocket tho

my wrong... have to admit I am am mainly a puddle jumper in Europe... and what a great expression... I like being a puddle jumper

Maybe it isn't upgrades, but business class long-haul passengers connecting to their final destination. A lot of international organizations pay C class for their employees and their families.

Cheers,

GenevaFlyer

There is usually a very strong positive correlation between the distribution of these surveys and the chance of being addressed by name on any given flight. I wonder why? Having said that, the purser who selectively handed out surveys on my flight last week nevertheless did not address my by name. Not that I care, it makes no difference whatsoever to me.

Johan

I always figure, if they don't address me by name, at least they are not calling me names either!

Flew AMS-KUL-SYD 2 weeks ago with unfortunately only the last stretch on MH... My AMS-KUL boarding card was printed with 'Europe Select' and not World Business Class (still head seat 77K). The check in agent had taken about 15 minutes as she had problems with the Australian eletronic visa entry so decided not to burden her further. Lounge 'dragon' was clueless... Service on board was the same (crappy jeunes restaurateur meal I've been enjoying for past 3 months) so guess no reason to be concerned.
Seat was the classic WBC kind so had the best-sleep-on-a-KLM-business-class-seat in a very long time.
Saturday returning from TYO NRT on a daytime flight so slightky leaning towards new WBC for IFE. Having said that - after MH and QF inflight entertainment (not to mention SQ) beginning to realize even the IFE is starting to become very dated on KLM... Have seen most of the movies and tv shows which are repeated month after month after month...

I had a great time on board my flight yesterday. Great crew, and btw I´ve been called by name most of the times in ES. The only thing I really dislike, apart from the middleseat, is the box they call meal. Unfortunately the box is self is as inedible as it´s content. Disgrace and most of the flightattendant look kinda embarrased when serving it. They should.

CF

I can only second this experience. On my most recent trip ZRH-AMS I received an op-up at the gate and experienced an outstanding service. However, I can't confirm the middle-seat issue completely: They kept all ES middle seats empty on this flight. When I returned ten days later, it was the exact opposite: full flight, even middle-seat occupied (no op-up for me this time )

If the flight is not full they may do this, but not always. I've been on plenty of flights where ES was jampacked, but there were lots of empty seats in economy. On one occasion I had the first row of economy to myself, whilst all the pax in ES were happily rubbing shoulders and elbows. The only explanation I can think of is that for some reason they could not or would not move the cabin divider farther aft.

Johan

I believe the configuration of C and M (yes the class code is still C) is usually determined approx 48 hours before departure.
In that time frame people can reserve seats but also cancel.
Don`t forget the missed connection factor on European seats especially out of AMS.