I've flown many carriers intra European C, unfortunately KLM ranks as one of the lower ones if the cabin is full. As layz noted Czech airlines on the other hand has a great C-product, and with the unlimited free upgrades the choice for me is simple.

I will continue to mkae sure people who are loking for the truth get it and that people like you who obviously have a fetish for KLM dont mislead them into wasting money because you think you FF card makes you someone special with without doubt the worst airline in Europe.

Remind me again about that pratt of a pilot who took off on his own accord and caused the worst air crash in Europe.


OOOOpppppps better be careful now that klmsaynowrong crew will be after me

When was this flight when you were downgraded?
Must have been at least 2 1/2 years ago as I keep on reading this story every few months or so.
I do find it fascinating that you keep repeating this story as some kind of mission.
In my opinion no airline is perfect, KL absolutely not either, but also the MH/CX/SQ/BA/VS's have messed up in some ways on some of my flights the past 3 years.

I don't think anyone on this forum is, except for the obvious KL-sponsored posters...

Back to the OP's original disappointment, and moving away from the personalisation of the arguments expressed so far, I'd like to ask about a key difference between Europe Select and other short/medium haul (eg intra-European) business classes from other companies:

How much of the experience is the SEAT (leg room, number of seats abreast, etc) VERSUS the other bits of business class (food, and real or perceived priority regarding boarding, check in, etc, newspapers, what have you).

Answers in percent of seat being the most important please, so 100% means seat means everything, food/priority/etc means nothing, down to 0% means you don't care what the seating arrangements are, it's the lounges, priority, food etc that matter

Techno

I think we all agree to some extent that KLM is bad, however I personally find this comment unacceptable.
I believe this is even the worst crash ever to have happened.

short flights 100%, long flights 90%. (Thay may seem illogical, since seat comfort is relatively more important on longer flights, but on short flights I don't need food or drink at all, whereas on longer flights one needs to drink and eat, so catering does come into the equation. Lounges etc are a elite benefit for me, therefore irrellevant from a class of travel perspective).

Johan

Correct.

and of course your not one one of them !!!! or did you really come from the KLM island Ewan McGregor escaped from - reading your posts if we cut you in half you have KLM stamped all the way through - please dont forget KLM is a 3 star airline according to Skytrax and what people write on there ceratinly makes me wonder how Ryanair are rated lower then KLM

Everyone, please keep the conversation focused on the miserable Europe Select product, and not on other posters.

I'm a small person, so the amount of room does not bother me much, and I have to say that the C class cakes are always very good - how shallow is that? I never pay for C though so I don't really care, but every time KLMc fly to Glasgow on an F100 or F70 it is overbooked and I get an op up. Can't complain really.

I have also flown on the NW domestic 1st which is a comparible journey type. I prefer the NW seats on their Airbuses but I don't like their food as much, plus on my last NW flight in 1st the woman behind me had the cheek to complain when i reclined the seat! What a .....! I told her I'd been in the air for 18hrs and to can it. Did the trick and I slept the whole flight. No food offered at all but it was quite late.

My other comparison was with BMI, I paid for a business class seat out of CDG once because the place was a hell hole, my flight had landed early and they wouldn't let me take the earlier one - .......s - not just KLM have poor service. Anyway, again their seats had far more room, but the food was sub-par and I was the only passenger in the cabin. I do believe they have ceased doing business class on the LHR - CDG route. Only positive thing about the BMI experience was that the stewards were flirting with me the whole time, but they were both men - obviously.

such a classicly great thread this. we go from europe select seats to blaming pilots causing deadliest crashes to sawing posters in half to flirting gay BMI stewards, all within 4, 5 posts.

one has to love it.

Well said!!

I'll speak up for KL intra-Europe C, but not for ES... KL op-up AMS-LHR is great when you're on the 763/332. On one occasion we took off from the Polderbaan, 20-25 mins from the gate, then after the 22 minute flight we circled LHR for almost an hour, so all the more time to drink pre-Christmas alcohol at the expense of the blue demons. Then a long enough wait for BA to reluctantly allow KL to dock at T4 that I could almost detox. Almost three hours from boarding to disembarkation - I've been on CO IAH-EWR flights that take less net time (1415 air miles compared with 217). Nice to have a genuine WBC seat for that period.

In fact my last few op-nonups to ES on the 734/8/9 have resulted in worse flights (crowded, middle seats, non-stowage of my carry ons etc.) than I would have had if I'd remained in my carefully obtained regular M seat.

The truth is that ES product is not worth paying extra for as it stands. If they're serious about attracting paying customers for a C product there needs to be more leg/shoulder/butt room and more comfortable seats. This doesn't have to mean full WBC config, something along the lines of CO's domestic F would be good. To be workable this also means controlling the rampant overbooking in Y (M in KL-speak, I suppose).

But the KL revenue managers have clearly determined that the marginal increment in revenue created by a genuine intra-Europe C is not equal to the marginal increment created by mass overbooking in M and daily use of ES as a holding pen for displaced M pax.

RTS