jetfan

Many of us have been dreading the day the current WBC seats on 747-400 and MD-11 aircraft are replaced with the current 777-200/A330-200 seats. These "Slippery-Slope-Seats" were to be installed as from summer '06 as has been proudly announced.

From my source at the KL HQ, it seems questions have now been raised whether this is the right plan after all.
They are investigating other options including the current NWA A330 seat (I've flown this and I must say it's not perfect but way better than the SSS of KL.)

Watch this space...!

johan rebel

Beter ten halve gekeerd dan ten hele gedwaald.

I'll cross all ten fingers as soon as I'm done typing this!

Johan

alanw

No, no, no, no, no! The NW seat is the WORST of all of these Tilt-A-Gurney monstrosities! NO! At least the others have a "cradle"position that lets you tilt back comfortably. The NW seat does not allow the seatbottom cushion to tilt back at all - only forward - so you wind up with your hips up in the air like you're at the gynecologist. AS GOD IS MY WITNESS IF THEY PUT THOSE SEATS ON ANY PLANES I WILL NEVER FLY KLM AGAIN!

rhodeswood

Maybe they do read FT......

It would be wonderful to see common sense prevail. If KL would just leave the marvellous old-style WBC seat in-situ they will have my business for ever more.

HB-IWC

They better make up their mind real fast. As far as I am in the know, the first B74E is undergoing a retrofit as we speak. I just wish they'd leave the MD11 alone and let us enjoy rown 1 and 2 for the remaining 5 years the MD11 is going to be part of KLM's fleet.

johan rebel

One advantage KL has with the 747 and MD11 is that there is plenty of space at the current 60" pitch, which should allow them to consider a wide range of alternatives (although not SA's A340-600 or KQ's 777 seats, unfortunately). Now that many other airlines have installed new C class seats, KL should also be in a position to learn from their mistakes.

So, which other airline's seat would we like KL to adopt?

Johan

jetfan

[QUOTE=johan rebel]One advantage KL has with the 747 and MD11 is that there is plenty of space at the current 60" pitch, which should allow them to consider a wide range of alternatives (although not SA's A340-600 or KQ's 777 seats, unfortunately). Now that many other airlines have installed new C class seats, KL should also be in a position to learn from their mistakes.

So, which other airline's seat would we like KL to adopt?

Johan[/QUOTE...

I hear they are looking at the AF NEV product too, provided that it will not lead to fewer seats.
Indeed KQ seat will not be possible without seat loss as the pitch is 75 inches.
LX seat is not that great, I find it too narrow and I am a bit too tall.
BA is true lie-flat but I hate the 2-4-2 config and the flying backward. Mind you, they would not do 2-4-2 on upperdeck or A-zone of 747 and MD-11. But apparently these are specially designed for BA and not available for other carriers?
SA is really great but would lead to loss of seats.
CX seat is comparable to SSS of KL 777, not great at all.
Haven't tried latest SQ seat.
I find the NW seat quite adequate actually.

Just my 2c worth.

TrayflowInUK

I was actually able to sleep on the new MH 777 business class seat when I flew to AKL in April. It's very similar to the NW A330, which I have flown on once and had no luck sleeping at all, probably the worst business class flight I've ever taken. So, maybe it's a learning curve? Anyway, I was able to sleep on my side and not slide down to the floor but arranging my 6' 275-lb frame wasn't easy.

So of all the "modern" biz class seats I've tried, this is the lesser of the evils.

alanw

Having just popped off an 11-hour flight in VS Upper Class, I can assure you that it doesn't have to be like this.

Leon

The KL objective is probably not the increased comfort of the passengers, but the increase in number of seats in the same space.

If KLM cares about the comfort of their passengers they would have gone to 180° lie-flat seats by now. Like BA has in c-class. BA has my preference over KLM on certain routes.

HB-IWC

In that respect, I wonder what is going to happen with the MD11 configuration. The number of WBC seats is supposed to be reduced to 24 only, which I presume to be 4 rows of 6 seats, all of them in a 2-2-2 lay out and probably in 2 cabins of 2 rows. I am pretty sure that will result in the addition of at least 2 (maybe even 3) rows of economy class.

The reduction in WBC seats on the MD11 will pretty much confine the MD11 to a restricted range of routes with lower WBC demand. In the future, I don't expect frequent aircraft swaps between the B772 and MD11 as is now the case on routes such as DEL, JRO-DAR, ACC and LOS. I also can't imagine an MD11 ever on the DXB route. Are 24 WBC seats even cutting it for a route like AMS-SFO or AMS-YUL?

johan rebel

That's my understanding too.

KL is not exactly known for the large number of C seats in its aircraft. Short haul they has now been effectively reduced to zero, and on longhaul aircraft the number is minimal. In fact, are there any airlines that have fewer C seats on their 744/MD11/777 aircraft? I can think of KQ's 777s, but it could be argued that they offer a hybrid C/F product.

All goes to show that KL is increasingly a low-yield/mass-market airline.

Johan

HB-IWC

I couldn't agree more, and this trend can best be spotted here in Asia, where KLM has to line up its miserable product against the likes of SQ, MH and CX, some of the world's best.

As a result, KLM's premium fares have been nosediving in recent years. A Z-class roundtrip to Europe ex SIN can now be had for as little as USD2,100. Most Asian carrier's similar fares are almost the double and partner Air France is consistently priced at least 50% more expensive than KLM. Premium fares ex BKK, TPE and MNL are equally under pressure.

I guess that there are still some markets where KLM can afford to charge premium tariffs, but in the really competitive markets, they do not stand a chance with the product they are currently offering. No wonder then that the number of premium seats will be further reduced.

I wonder why KLM is so complacent about this apparently less than desirable situation. After all, if the likes of Iberia can rebrand their premium product and let it be followed by increased fares, why wouldn't KLM be able to do the same? Or is it really the AF/KL corporate strategy which calls for AF to be the premium brand and KLM the also ran? A case of La Grande Dame vs. Chateau Migraine?

johan rebel

Judging by the published fares, one would get the impression that KL believe they have their Dutch home market cornered. I suspect, however, that steeply discounted (corporate) fares are rife.



Johan

HB-IWC

It seems like we'll soon know the outcome, as PH-BFB, a full pax B744, has been undergoing a D-check for over a month now and it due to return to the active fleet around August 15, with the new C-class installed.