I've probably done close to 50K miles with SQ over the last year and I have several long hauls with them coming up next week. All my flights have been in business class, but they do have Krisworld in Economy right? KL has no IFE right?

For me the service on SQ is absolutely exceptional. On a short Asian flight recently, I asked for a cup of green tea. They said just a moment Mr Stimpy, (yes all guests are called by name unlike KLM) and about 15 seconds later my green tea arrived and she said "I'm sorry you had to wait so long Mr Stimpy. I've flown a heck of a lot of KLM miles over the last decade and never, ever had service as good as the worst SQ flight.

Perhaps you have had communications problems with the staff? Of course you know that English is not their first language. I make a point to look them in the eye and communicate very clearly. If it looks like they don't understand, I try again. This is normal for most all people I deal with in Asia.

As for the seat, that is subjective. I like the space beds and the old biz seats are OK too. I don't have the sliding down problem on SQ, KL or LH. I know that others don't like it though. Of course F class on SQ is wonderful. There is no F class on KL.

I will say that I have had some good KL crews over the years, but there is no consistency like there is on SQ. They are always good IME.

Food is as you say a matter of taste. I like the SQ food more than the KL food in general, but I really don't rank airline food as an important feature.

And last but not least, SQ has WiFi on board on some of the flights now. That is the best IFE for me and I will always choose airlines that have this. That's one reason why I fly Star Alliance so much.

I know that different people like different things when flying so thank you for explaining what is important for you.
For me IFE is not important as I always bring my own (a book!), nor is WiFI as I don't even own a laptop.
I have NEVER been addressed by name on Y class on SQ. I don't have any problems communicating with the SQ staff (my Singlish is not bad lah!), it is just that they are very busy just like crews on other airlines and can't provide much extra service. For instance on a recent MNL - SIN flight it took them 1 hour and 20 minutes to clear my tray AFTER I had finished my meal. Sometimes I ask for a non-standard drink in Y class but since getting more than one unhappy look I just take whatever they have on offer.
The fact that they have F class is one of the problems with their C class: you are treated as a middle-of-the-road passenger when flying C. This is most evident when arriving by taxi at SIN and the taxi driver drops you off at the F class entrance. The porters will rush to your taxi and ask "Good morning Sir, are you flying in First today?" and when the answer is "no, in businesss" they quickly close the door and go away.

Again, I haven't tried economy but there are more FA's in C on SQ than there are in C on KL. That's why they can give such great service. KL, and most US airlines, don't staff enough in C on long hauls. For some reason LH staffs well in C. They have been very good lately IME. And the SQ name calling is only in C or F I think. KL doesn't do that in C.

I don't see that middle-of-the-road problem you mentioned. Plus most flights I have taken lately don't have F so C is the tops. As for the porters at SIN, the last time I was there they took care of me in biz class. But I wouldn't expect that. First class service is for First Class customers. You shouldn't expect it when you are in C.

It sounds like you are comparing KL Y with SQ Y. To me, all Y is the same regardless of the airline. Except AF Y is pretty good if you speak French I've found. :D

But if you compare KL C with SQ C, I cannot beleive anyone would prefer KL even if they are Dutch. But that is just my humble opinion.

Would you say the same thing about KL versus MH? I haven't flown MH in a while, but I recall they are roughly the same as SQ. When they join Skyteam I'll get to try them again.

I agree that all airlines in Y are pretty bad, and the one and only factor that can make a flight tolerable is the load. My (very good) travel agent in SIN advises against flying SQ for my leisure travel (and he is Singaporean!) because "flights are too full". He told us to fly GF to Sydney and the flights in Y were wonderful - just because they were < 50% full!

Yes, for flights in C I prefer KL to SQ. In my experience, service is comparable on both airlines (see my post above for examples that SQ crews are not perfect), seat is better on KL, food is better, schedule is much better and I get my little Dutch house. And you can't get much roomier on any airplane than KL's downstairs front section on a 747.

I have only done one one-way long haul business class on MH - KUL to AMS. Was OK, but not perfect either. And it was inexcusable that they woke me up for breakfast 3 1/2 hours before landing at Schiphol. Yes, that is 3 1/2 hours...... :(

I agree with both of you guys! KLM Business Class is adequate. It is not in any way comparable to leading Asian carriers or even VS, BA or AF nev. It is, however, better than the Americans. Until I started my own company I did not worry about travel costs. Now I have to travel economy (for a while anyway) and it has been a real eye-opener. KLM product in Y is vastly inferior to its competitors (AF, BA, LH). I have been really surprised, as my previous experience with them was in business and I always found it to be ok-ish. SQ economy is MILES better. QF ditto. For KL crew it is patently obvious that the whole thing is just a horrible grind and they can't wait to sit down. Fine. I don't blame them. But it is nice to be able to inform people of this so that they can arrange themselves accordingly and go elsewhere. Now, if KL had low fares to match the low service...

In your opinion that is. I haven't flown BA in many years, but can regularly be found on LH and AF in Y class. Very comparable to KL, not much difference. For what it is worth: two Singaporean colleagues who normally fly SQ recently flew KL Y class to AMS (on two different flights) I had told them "don't expect too much". When they got back, both of them said service was quite good and they did not have any complaints, they knew about the limited IFE and just brought a good book.

Well, in the last 24 months I have done about 80k on SQ, 140k on KL, 140k on BA, 100k on Delta (and a whole bunch on other carriers) almost all in Premium cabins. SQ often trumps KL, however I almost always find SQ to be lacking. Some of us do not get Skybeds on our long haul routes in Biz (Try flying IST-SIN sometime), and the old Biz seats stink. the SQ girls remember your name?? Great, so do the FA's on every other Asian airline - that's their schtick. They are almost uniformly automotons and are UNABLE to deal with any problems/requests outside the box. While some find the sickly sweet attentiveness alluring, notice that most Aisan businessmen don't get it and to be frank don;t want it - it's mostly annoying.

As for the OP, I have on two occasions been in Biz on AF and have witnessed multiple Af employees AND their young children be upgraded to Biz after the door closes. Once it was a CDG ticketing agent with his wife and three young children (one of whom proceeded to kick my seat for half an hour), when I could find the crew (who were not answering the call button- they were having coffee and croissants in the galley) they confirmed what I thought - but other than having an ineffectual word, there was nothing they could do.

KLM Biz is a middle of the road product, plain and simple, better than many, and worse than some. Then again it is often priced accordingly. As for whether AF, KL, LH, BA, or whoever has the better Y product, it is almost a meaningless exercise as Y products have much less differential between them than C products (and actually the AVOD on the KL 777's and A330's blows away almost every other AVOD in the sky actually)

Couldn't agree more. Admittedly haven't flown KL for a long while as I have been making conscious efforts to avoid them, but checking back into this forum every few months confirms that is the right thing to do. Comparing KL with SQ/CX/MH and the like is a joke in my opinion.

Actually, KL has lower prices.... But I suppose it all depends on your starting point. E.g. from the UK KLM usually has much lower fares than other airlines that fly directly to where you want to go. From AMS fares are much higher.

My experience with C service on AMS-SIN and return a month ago: flying out the service was excellent, food was good quality. This was on the upper deck with about 6 empty seats. On the return flight the service was ok, but nothing special, in a full forward cabin. Food was very mediocre, my neighbour had the other choice and complained it was inedible... KLM should really get a better caterer in SIN IMHO.

KLM's fares ex France are now as high as AF for obvious reasons. Better deals are to be had on LH/SQ/TG to SE Asia so that is where we will be going I guess. Being a longstanding AF FP member it is discouraging to start building miles with a new alliance but really if we are locked into Y travel there is nothing to be gained by staying with ST.

[QUOTE=AshleyB]KLM's fares ex France are now as high as AF for obvious reasons. QUOTE]

All my apologies, but I fully disagree with this. May be depends of the routes, but on mine (US and north of Europe), it's quite rare that I find a fare in AF equivalent to KL ones (in Y). Else I would fly more AF, since while don't like CDG (prefer largely Schipol) I really prefer AF in the air than KL, mainly for aircraft comfort...

For example, you can make very easily a TLS / CPH for less than 300 euros (booking with a couple of weeks in advance). I very rarely found such rates on AF.
Lately, I even found KL fares largely lower than AF ones... on the AF website.

My concern is more seeing KL becoming a kind of low cost subsidiary of AF, than getting the fares alike....

To SE Asia and India they are about the same. To the US they seem to be around the same though maybe a little less on certain days. Next Thursday to JFK for example fares are almost identical.

Next Thursday is late to get a bargain on any company, except for any last minute fare...
Actually I was amazed, but you know your routes ; having 5 minutes before my flight, I checked a virtual trip on JFK, Delhi and HKG on both companies, with dep April 13, return on 18th ; moved for a day if necessary to avoid ridiculous rates : result was : JFK AF 583 KL 471 ; DEL 897 on both (and about 1300 the crowded days) ; HKG was AF 979, KL 916 : well close of your assumtions ; I tried this from TLS to avoid the fact than from PAR, AF has just one plane to operate and KL 2 ; JFK was a little more expensive (616 and 508), the two other strictly identical.

Thus, it's seems that according to this small poll (without any statistical pretention..) your point is valid.... and mine is also, really route dependant with KL cheaper on US. It seems that Asia is so crowded that none feels keen to propose any bargain, when the aircrafts are full up anyway...

KLM Y product vs LH/AF Y product
 

This really depends on the flights taken. I regularly use KLM's 777 service to NBO in economy class. IFE is excellent (video-on-demand, plenty of choice), seats and pitch are ok (if nothing to write home about), and the food is adequate as well. Lufthansa has nothing to match the IFE in economy and while most AF do, I have also travelled on their tired 747 service to JNB and been appalled by it. So, at the end of the day it really depends on your flight patterns, but a statement such as the above is plainly not true universally.

Sadly KL does not operate the 777 to Singapore, Jakarta or HKG so one is left with very ratty looking combis. But really even a tired old aircraft is tolerable if the crew are good. This, more than anything, is the problem with KLM.