I have just returned from a short trip to Asia using KL (in Y class unfortunately) as opposed to AF and although Schipol is a joy KL itself really is as bad as they say! Two or three things stand out. On all three flights (AMS-KUL-CGK, HKG-AMS) the most desirable seats were reserved for KL employees. On two of the flights (all full to overbooked) the purser upgraded employees after the doors were closed and moved relations of the employees to the best seats (at the front of the cabin) leaving us idiotic Platinum Elites where we belonged with our knees around our ears. Clearly KLM is an airline that cares deeply for its employees, which is great. Equally clear is their contempt for customers, which not so great.

Secondly, the aircraft used are very battered and there is no IFE to speak of, which is, in this day and age (see VS CX SQ QF etc), a real drawback on a 14 hour flight.

Thirdly, KL catering is just astonishingly awful. Even US carriers seem to do better than that. Again, on short flights (or even to the US) no one really cares, but on long flights it does matter a bit, although clearly not to KLM. My advice would be to have a decent dinner before getting on the plane (though difficult if you have a tight connection) and take some snacks with you. Oh, and don't bother asking the FA's for anything as they are likely to give you a very nasty look if you interrupt their chat. They may hate their customers but they do look very cute walking around in their cosy looking blue track suits during their breaks. Bless.

So if you want to enjoy a KLM flight get a job with the Flying Dutchman. Otherwise stick to Air France (or anybody else for that matter).

I am about to book a longhaul trip to S America so thanks for the advice.

On the few trans-Atlantic flights I have taken with KL and others the key factor seems to be supervision. A good purser = an attentive crew.

Some years ago BA had a similar reputation but they tackled the problem and now at least pretend to like their job

, good one !!

You made my day !

Reading your post, you seem to be a little bit grumpy, cause you were not op.up`ed, right ?

Would you take the time to explain a bit what were the problems with the meals ? No more Selected Delights ?

Actually I wasn't grumpy about no upgrade (as it almost never happens and indeed one can hardly expect it) but by the care and attention lavished on fellow employees and their relations and the stark contrast it provided to the (barely civil) treatment meted out to passengers. This is by all accounts a real problem for KLM and something I can honestly say I have never experienced on AF. Not every AF flight is perfect but they (the cabin staff) play by the rules and are as a rule pleasant and even handed. Ground staff are another matter altogether.

Catering was just terrible. One does not expect too much, but KLM have obviously decided to cut it to the bone and make a token effort. Quality was poor to the point of being effectively inedible and quantity was microscopic (probably just as well). And all served with a scowl. I have never been a FA and I guess it probably isn't all that much fun handing out plastic trays at 10.30 at night but taking it out on the passenger is somewhat... unfriendly. Lesson: book AF if you can.

Funny, I've enjoyed the KLM meals more than the AF ones...

Question: were the employees in uniform, or with their badges showing? And their relatives, did they have a sign around their neck indicating their relationship to the employees, or were they identified some other way?

They were out of uniform but wearing badges on the blue strings. One was a cantonese speaking off-duty FA on her way to a training programme in the NL travelling with her parents and the other was a Dutchman with a wife and two children. The point is - and ultimately it isn't that big a deal - that the cabin staff seemed genuinely grumpy and put out by the fare paying passengers. From what I have seen on this forum the superior treatment given to employees is a feature of KLM. Now I know I don't have to fly with them. I would imagine that employment conditions at KLM are not very good.

You seem to be judging KLM on the basis of just one flight. I've had flights that were terrible and others that were wonderful. So much seems to depend on the cabin crew on duty on the day - the individuals, and the dynamics between them.

Not entirely, as I have had occasionally to use them to India or the US, but they were flights of less than 9 hours where I just wasn't that bothered. But as I fly to Asia once a month (and most often in economy) I want to avoid repeating an experience which, according to this forum, is fairly common. Fortunately AF covers all my bases but Jakarta. Just put it down to an experiment gone wrong.

You're entitled to your opinion and your personal preferences.
One or more bad experiences can put one off.
But I would disagree with you (my opinion!) that AF outranks KL on all aspects of economy class (or business class for that matter).
KL product is very much in line (and in some cases better) than AF and LH on long haul.
And BA has its ups and downs too.
As a poster above said, the crew can make a difference either way.
When comparing the carriers above in Business Class with SQ/CX/MH, they certainly don't always come out tops.
However, on economy class I'm not too convinced.
I've had terrible flights in economy with both SQ and MH.
But if you dislike KL so much then indeed fly another airline.
That's the advantage of having more than one option - the way it should be.

deleted due dupe posting

I agree ashley, it is horrid, klm. air france isnt all that great either, but when it comes to service onboard they win outright... and comparing MH SQ or CX C class to klm is an outright laugh... Klm has become a low cost carrier in a low cost alliance... Aeroflot? need i say more?

It is all a matter of taste, yocko. I have done a lot of returns Asia - Europe on KL in business class last year, and recently did one on SQ business class and guess what? I find KL much better than SQ! Very mediocre service by the Singapore girls, bad food, and I did not sleep half as good in the slippery slope SQ seat than in KL's good-old 747 seat.

If the above post doesn't show us how incredibly diverse Flyertalk is, I don't know what else could. For someone to favor KL over SQ? Sjoerd, either you are paid by KLM to say that, or you just have a very, very, very different view of the world that most of the rest of us.

When was the last time you flew SQ? I have done 72,000 miles with them in the last 11 months (most in intra-Asia economy class, some intra-Asia business class, and one return AMS - SIN in business class) and they are very average.

On my AMS - SIN return in business class two weeks ago:
1) they forgot to offer me my welcome drink;
2) the food was quite bad (I know: this is purely a matter of taste) and the breakfast choices were particularly unappetizing;
3) during the night they serve water in glasses which they continuously top-up. Sounds nice, but is not such a good idea when your window seat neighbour tries to climb over you and drops two full glasses of water on your pants;
4) I advised them for AMS - SIN not to wake me up for breakfast. So one Singapore girl DID wake me up, I told her I'd rather rest some more, and 5 minutes later her colleague again tapped my shoulder;
5) the lounge at SIN was so full that I decided I'd rather be in the public areas of Changi;
6) the schedule AMS - SIN with a 11am departure is horrible, two days wasted;
7) I always sleep like a baby on KL's 747s in business class. The slippery slope SQ seat is not my thing. (I have yet to fly on KL's 777s but read here that the seats are also bad)

KLM is far from perfect and I have my fair share of criticism for them. However, my experience in C class long-haul on 747s has been excellent.

SQ has been very successful in building a brand. However, I have concluded it is mostly clever advertising and the herd mentality of many people who will just repeat whatever they hear from others. SQ are not bad, but after 72,000 miles in 11 months I can safely say that they are average like most other airlines, service in economy class is mediocre, and their business class is far from perfect.

By the way, I am not paid by KL or anyone else to say all of this.