mzzrjz

As there has been so many good comments on the itineraries below, we took the courage to add our one as well. We would be thankful to all good suggestions and critics. We are travelling with two children (one 4 years and other 11 months old baby) so we are a little bit worried about the schedule being too busy. We have Japan Rail Pass, so we plan travelling on JR trains essentially. Our trip takes place in early March.
Here it goes:
Day 1: Arriving to Kansai airport. Airport - Osaka, night in Osaka.
Day 2: Late afternoon train to Kyoto.
Day 3: Kyoto
Day 4: Kyoto
Day 5: Kyoto
Day 6: Kyoto to Magome, hiking from Magome to Tsumago, train to Matsumoto.
Day 7: Late afternoon (15. 30) bus to Shirahone onsen. We would like to go there to see the beautiful scenery of Japanese Alps. And as the weather in early March is not good for mountain hiking so the best way (and with children) is to see it from the bus window.
Day 8: Shirahone - Matsumoto - Tokyo.
Day 9: Tokyo
Day 10: Tokyo
Day 11: Tokyo, visiting Nikko.
Day 12: Tokyo
Day 13: Tokyo - Nara (there is a water throwing festival in Nara)
Day 14: Nara - Kansai airport.

We would be glad to hear your frank opinion about the Japanese Alps part and we would appreciate to learn the peoples opinion who have been in Shirahone. Is it worth the effort and the time spent in trains and buses? Maybe it would be better to omit it and spend more time in Kyoto or Tokyo? One day more in Tokyo would give us the possibility to visit also Izu-Hanto peninsula. Maybe it would be more rewarding with the children then Japanese Alps.

Awaiting your opinions and suggestions
A family from Europe

LapLap

I can't comment on Shirahone - it's the only part of your itinerary I haven't done/been to. I can assure you that the train from Tsumago to Matsumoto is very picturesque and you will see plenty of the scenery from it.

Similarly, if you take the train directly from Matsumoto to Shinjuku (Super Azusa train) the views are also quite beautiful. This isn't really the case with the shinkansen journey via Nagano.

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I am a little concerned with Day 13.

It will be a long trip from Tokyo to Nara - from leaving your hotel in Tokyo to arriving there it will take at least 4 hours (4.5 hours if travelling by Hikari Shinkansen with a JR pass)

But then the water drawing 'festival' seems more somber than many other of Japan's Matsuri and from what I can tell, the rituals you're planning to see climax at 2am. So as long as you can all relax, and hopefully sleep on the train this might not be such a bad idea after all.
Do be sure to wear your very worst clothes that night, and my advice to you as a veteran of many fire festivals is to take whatever eye protection you're comfortable with wearing, even if its a pair of sunglasses, for your children. You'll enjoy everything much, much more if you aren't overly worried about embers and ashes.

Don't leave it too close when travelling in and out of Nara in case transport gets crowded - it's one thing to travel on a packed train as an adult, but it's particularly miserable (and potentially very dangerous) to do so as a child. Thankfully, it's unlikely that transport to Nara will get quite as congested as the trains to/from Kurama were for their October Matsuri.

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If you run a search for Tsumago in this forum you'll see a detailed account of the Magome-Tsumago hike including a link to a diagram showing the gradients involved. I'm assuming you'll be carrying your baby, and you better than anyone can judge whether your 4 year old will have the stamina for it. I certainly wouldn't advise you against it, but I would suggest getting a local taxi number when you're there. As long as you can get to a road, I have no doubt that one of the many passing hikers (most will have a phone with them) will be able to assist you should you need to cut your hike short.
I would think that Matsumoto castle was a wonderful place to go with children and both Tsumago and Magome should be quite fun for them - it is entirely possible that they will enjoy these areas more than Kyoto and Tokyo.

NewbieRunner

I'm afraid I don't have the time to read the whole of the Kiso Valley Area thread right now but think Day 6 of your itinerary is over ambitious. Remember that early March is still winter season in Kiso and especially in the Japan Alps area.

Let's assume you leave Kyoto by Shinkansen in the morning. Since Japan Rail Pass does not allow you to travel on "Nozomi" trains you have the following options:

Kyoto – Nagoya
7:22 - 8:11 (Hikari 362)
8:00 - 8:57 (Hikari 402)
8:35 - 9:11 (Hikari 404)
9:00 - 9:57 (Hikari 364)

Nagoya – Nakatsugawa
8:28 - 9:24 (Shinano 81)
9:00 - 9:47 (Wideview Shinano 5)
9:36 - 10:38 (Wideview Shinano 83)
10:00 - 10:47 (Wideview Shinano 7)
10:36 - 11:35 (Wideview Shinano 85)

Nakatsugawa Sta. – Magome (bus)
9:40 - 10:08
10:20 - 10:48
11:10 - 11:38
11:50 - 12:18

So by leaving Kyoto in the morning you can reach Magome in time for lunch. Once you leave Magome there's nowhere you can stop to have lunch so it's advisable to have lunch in Magome.

I did this walk in November 2005, coincidentally about the time when the Kiso Valley thread was being written. I’m sure you can find out elsewhere about the actual walk from Magome to Tsumago (highly recommended by the way) so I'll just mention a couple of things I've found on the net.

Luggage transport service between Magome – Tsumago does not operate until 21 March and even then only on Saturdays, Sundays and public holidays until the summer season.

Buses from Magome to Tsumago (just in case) then to Nagiso Sta.

Magome - Magome Pass - Oo-tsumago - Tsumago - Nagiso Sta
10:55 - 11:06 - 11:16 - 11:21 - 11:30
13:00 - 13:11 - 13:21 - 13:26 - 13:35
15:00 - 15:11 - 15:21 - 15:26 - 15:35

Tsumago - Nagiso Sta.
15:47 - 15:56

I can't remember exactly how long it took us to walk from Magome to Tsumago, but ours was a leisurely walk – we had lunch in Magome and were staying the night in Tsumago. If I go again (which I hope to) I'll stay in Oo-Tsumago which is a small hamlet about 1.5km from Tsumago itself. Some photos here.
http://images.google.co.jp/images?hl...-8&sa=N&tab=wi

But I don’t know how adventurous the OP and family might be to stay at a place like Oo-Tumago. Sorry, I am getting side-tracked.

Nagiso - Matsumoto
15:58 - 16:59 (Wideview Shinano 17)
17:02 - 18:56 (need to change at Shioziri)
18:25 - 20:28 (need to change at Shioziri)

So it's technically possible to do it all in one day even if you actually walk Magome – Tsumago and possibly to Nagiso Station, but I wouldn't recommend it especially with young children. It's almost criminal not to stay the night in the Tsumago area if you are going that far. Tsumago itself has a lot to see and worth spending a morning at least.

Shirahone Onsen: You've obviously checked the bus timetable but did you know these buses run in the winter season because private cars are banned from the area? The live webcam of Shirahone Onsen may show you why.
http://www.m-azumi.jp/live/live03.html

The following timetables are valid from 16 Nov 07 to 23 Apr 08.

Matsumoto - Shin-shimashima (love the name!)
7:16 - 7:50 (train)
13:40 - 14:10 (bus)
14:50 - 15:20 (train)

Shin-shimashima - Shirahone Onsen (bus)
8:00 - 9:25
14:10 - 15:35
15:25 - 16:39

Shirahone Onsen - Shin-shimashima
10:00 - 11:25 (direct bus to Matsumoto arriving at 11:55)
15:45 - 17:09 (bus)

Shin-shimashima - Matsumoto
17:28 17:57 (train)

If you arrive at Shirahone Onsen at 16:39 and leave at 10:00 you'll hardly have time to see the wonderful scenery. If you take the afternoon bus to Shin-shimashima and train to Matsumoto, you can catch Super Azusa at 18:35 and arrive at Shinjuku by 21:05.

I agree with LapLap that Magome-Tsumago and also Shirahone could be the highlight of the holiday but I must say the schedule seems too busy. I would spend less time in Tokyo and possibly cut out Nikko in order to spend more time in Kiso.

All timetables are based on what's available on the Internet now, though they could change. I'll check for any transcription error later

LapLap

I missed the implication of this in the itinerary and completely agree with NewbieRunner (I took it for granted you'd be staying in Tsumago).

Tsumago, especially in the evening after the day trippers have gone is magical. The street lighting is subdued and does its best to emulate how it would have looked before the village was hooked to an electricity supply. Without much imagination you can easily pretend that you stepped back 100 years. I was able to watch the whole buckwheat flour to cut noodle process at the window of a soba restaurant - I doubt the techniques used when Tsumago was a post town would have been so very different. But just clunking in wooden geta down the quiet streets was a hugely memorable (and for us rather romantic) experience with just as much atmosphere and charm as a stroll through the quiet alleys of Northern Venice. It's definitely worth staying within Tsumago itself on your first visit.

SFOtoORD

We had 4 nights in Kyoto on our trip, but did a Shinkansen day trip to Hiroshima and Miyajima island. Worked very well. Took the 7:42 am Shink to Hiroshima, then the JR line to Miyajimaguchi and the ferry. We were there by 10ish, back in Hiroshima by 1, and then on our way back to Kyoto by 6. A very nice day. I found that Hiroshima had a huge impact on me. Probably even more than I expected.

mzzrjz

Thank you for such detailed anwers!
I find your work you´re doing here answering continuously (and so well!) to same questions extremely rewarding. Hope you will never get tired of it.

The thread you suggested about Tsumago and Magome was very helpful. I consider reworking the schedule so that we could spend a night in Tsumago. In one day we could easily take trains and buses to Magome, hike to Tsumago (about 6 hours?) and then overnight in Tsumago. Starting the hike in Magome would also be easier (not so much uphill).
Maybe I need to post another thread about Shirahone, because there is very few information about it in Internet - only hotel ads and some articles about the "white powder scandal" in their waters. I also wonder what the weather should be there in ealry March. Could we use outside rotenburos at all? We come from a Nordic country, so snow is not at all exotic to us, but we have no mountains in our country at all.
Your information, Laplap, about Nara temple ceremony (sorry about water-trhowing error - my English is not so good), was also important on deciding not to go there, but spend the end of the trip in Osaka instead. Lets leave Nara to the next trip to Japan.
We spend so much time in Tokyo, because we have some friends there to meet. It also seems to us that there are some very nice one-day trip possibilities near Tokyo - Nikko, Izu-Hanto, Mito with its garden and Takao-san (although probably not so interesting when we have been in Alps). And they are easy to make with JR pass. NewbieRunner, why you suggest cutting out Nikko? Actually, I´ve also heard controversial opinions about it. Some say it is too touristy, others praise it to heaven. Which side trip do you prefer near Tokyo - with nice nature, walking possibilities (e.g. not the "drive and stop" - type spots) and some good cultural sights.


So we reworked our schedule as follows:
Day 1: Arriving to Kansai airport. Airport - Kyoto
Day 2: Kyoto
Day 3: Kyoto
Day 4: Kyoto
Day 5: Kyoto to Magome, hiking from Magome to Tsumago.
Day 6: Tsumago - Matsumoto - Shirahone (still considering about cutting out Shirahone!)
Day 7: Shirahone - Matsumoto - Tokyo.
Day 8: Tokyo
Day 9: Tokyo
Day 10: Tokyo
Day 11: Tokyo, some kind of side trip.
Day 12: Tokyo - Osaka
Day 13: Osaka
Day 14: Osaka - Kansai airport.

Thank you once more. Even if you dont answer to these questions, your input to our travel plans has been considerable.

LapLap

I hope I haven't discouraged you from visiting Nara. And my comments of the water drawing festival were just my impressions - I've not been to this particular festival.

In your situation, with a young child and a four year old I would probably choose to spend more time in Nara than Kyoto. The sights are closer together and there's lots of park land with deer roaming around (although the deer can become a little frightening if they take a shine to you - but less frightening than wild reindeer!)

The hike from Magome to Tsumago should take a lot less than 6 hours - no more than 4.

I think it's hard to spend too long in Tokyo. Nikko sounds like a perfect day trip for you. More than Mount Takao, my suggestion for you would be the Nihon Minka En, just to the West of Tokyo http://www.city.kawasaki.jp/88/88min...sual_visit.htm
The area is forested, so it will feel just like being in the country, and there is a large selection of traditional houses to see - many of which you will be able to enter. Although these houses have been brought here and rebuilt from different locations, they have maintained the smells of generations of people living in them. If it is possible to have someone who reads Japanese with you at this park you can learn a little more, but it isn't essential.

If you find your children are getting tired of walking, then a trip around Hakone using the 'Hakone Free Pass' (not free, a kind of all inclusive travel pass) might also be a rewarding day trip. You get to cover a lot of ground but do most of your travelling on trains that climb mountainsides with cables as well as several hanging cable cars, ships and buses. The scenery can be lovely and you get a chance of some good photo opportunities with Mount Fuji in the background.

If the weather turns nasty when you're in Tokyo then you might like the Edo Tokyo Museum (it's pretty child friendly).

And here's advice I've posted before - but not easy to find unless you already knew about it
If you can imagine your children getting serious about this, it might be worth while to carry a large inkpad around with you too as some of the inkpads at the stamp 'stations' can be dried out (not everyone puts the lids back on)

NewbieRunner

There's another good reason why walking from Magome to Tsumago is preferable. Magome is very touristy, commercialized and full of day trippers as it's just off the Chuo Expressway. Although also a tourist destination Tsumago in contrast preserves its historical appearance and atmosphere. To walk from Tsumago to Magome would be a real disappointment and anti-climax for me.

Although you will see a lot of historical buildings in Kyoto, Tsumago is much smaller and more intimate. I enjoyed walking around Okuya, waki-honjin or the secondary inn of the town, which retains its original building. You can also visit the main inn of the town (honjin) which has been rebuilt and an old post office which houses a very small postal museum.

I'm ashamed to admit that I didn't know about Shirahone Onsen. Having read about it I would love to go there. Winter seems to be a popular season for rotenburos, although the public rotenburo in the centre of the village is closed between the end of November and end of April. Most ryokans (inns) actually have rotenburos including Awanoyu Ryokan which has a mixed rotenburo! and separate segregated rotenburos (800 yen or 1000 yen for day visitors – closed on Thursdays). Nearby Konashinoyu Sasaya has a small "family" rotenburo which can be reserved for 30 minutes per group, open between 11:00 and 14:30 for day visitors. These two ryokans seem some distance away from the centre of the village and a little more special, but there are several others with rotenburos.

I hadn't been to Nikko until I was quite old. English friends who'd been there used to tease me because I'd never been to Nikko. But when I eventually got there I was underwhelmed. It just wasn't my sort of place and wonder if there's anything for the children.

Kamakura is an easy day out from Tokyo with a bit of history and walking possibilities, though you could say it is also touristy. Izu-hanto would be a nice change from the Japan Alps and you could even be too late for cherry blossoms in March!

NewbieRunner

A friend who lives near Shizuoka raves about Izu-hanto in early spring (and other times of year as well) and her recommendation is Kawazu Zakura (or Kawazu cherry blossom) which is a variety of early flowering cherry. There are also hiking opportunities. This year's Kawazu Cherry Blossoms Festival is from 9th February to 10th March, so you may to too late.

http://yaccyann.maxs.jp/kawazu/e.html
http://geoimages.berkeley.edu/worldw...Kishimoto.html

You can travel to Kawazu by the Superview Odoriko (named after a short story by Yasunari Kawabata, Dancing Girl of Izu) limited express train (reserved seats only). As the last section is not JR, Japan Rail Pass holders may have to pay supplement. Some photos here:

http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_251.html

I haven't been on this train but I believe one of the carriages is equipped as children's play area. (The circular areas of the seat apparently make some noise when you sit on them.)

http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame78.../kodomo/01.jpg

If you miss cherry blossoms in Kawazu, there will be other places in Izu-hanto where cherry blossoms are at their best in mid-March.

The western side of Izu-hanto is nice but is more difficult to get to and not suitable for a day trip from Tokyo.

mzzrjz

Where could I get the bus and ferries timetable of Izu-Hanto? Maybe it would be worth staying one night on the way back to Kansai? It is a little too far from Tokyo for a day-trip.

NewbieRunner

I have the advantage because I can read Japanese but timetables in English seem hard to come by. You probably know about the hyperdia and its limitation.　You have to know exactly where you start from and where you want to go in order to use this website and it does not seem possible to browse timetables by the route. Perhaps others on this forum might have other suggestions.

http://www.japanrail.com/JR_hyperdia.html

You will have gathered why it's more difficult to get to western Izu if you looked at this site.

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e6310.html

I used to go to a place called Heda when I was small and the quickest (may be the only) way to get there was by boat from Numazu. A few years ago I went there by car but it was still quite a long drive.

You may already have found this leaflet on the JNTO website which seems very detailed.

http://www.jnto.go.jp/eng/location/rtg/pdf/pg-410.pdf

Toi to Shimizu ferries take 1 hour 5 minutes, run 4 times daily on weekdays and 7 times at weekends and in peak season (including Kawazu Cherry Blossoms Festival). Fares for foot passengers are 2000 yen (adult), 1000 yen (6-12 years olds), free for under 6.

http://www.dream-ferry.co.jp/suruga/suruga-jikoku.html

You might also find the following site useful since it gives general information about Izu and the Shimoda area.

http://izu-sakuraya.jp/english/

I was puzzled by the statement: "B & B (Bed & Breakfast) and No meals are acceptable!!" Having checked the Japanese website I think what they mean is although it is a B&B, guests who do not wish to have meals there are accepted! If you like seafood you'd want to eat there after seeing these photos:

http://izu-sakuraya.jp/shokuji.htm

I've also found an interactive bus timetable site (Japanese only). Any idea where you might want to go?

http://www.tokaibus.jp/map/map.asp

jib71

If you explore Hyperdia you can get a lot of information about routes and trains. I sometimes turn to Hyperdia to do some digging that I simply can't do with other services. The key is to explore the clickable icons in the "timetable" and "information" columns of the results display.

In the "Timetable" column, there are usually two symbols:
- A clock: ("Departure Timetable") - shows departure times for that line from that station.
- A book and a clock: ("Book Style Timetable") - shows the times for that service at each station en route.

In the "Information" column, there is usually one symbol:
- A train with an "I" superimposed; ("Information") - shows the starting point and end point of that train and all stations in between

Now, you need to be a bit resourceful to find all possible ways from A to B. But that's true of any resource, really.

My biggest gripes about Hyperdia are :
(1) It sometimes appears to miss possible routes that other engines find. (This seems to happen for routes from Narita to Tokyo).
(2) It doesn't have timetables for local / city buses. (I use Navitime - a paid service - for that).

mzzrjz

OK, I´m more interested in west coast of Izu and according to Lonely Planet, the bus does not take so long from one point to another. But of course it depends on how frequent the buses are (and if they really exist).

Here is a one-day plan for Izu:

08.23 – 09.13 Tokyo – Atami (kodama shinkansen)
09.26 – 09.48 Atami-Ito
10.00 – 11.00 Ito-Shimoda train

11.00 – 13.00 Shimoda

around 13.00 – Shimoda – Dogashima bus (arriving 14.00)

(or 2 PM boat to Irozaki and then bus to Dogashima (depends on bus hours))

18.00 – 19.30. Dogashima – Shuzen-ji (staying overnight)

So theoretically it would be possible to see the west coast in one day. Unfortunately I dont have any bus times and going there in the hope to find some buses without being sure is not very wise.

NewbieRunner

You have the Lonely Planet guide as well . Mind you mine is a rather old edition. Your plan for Tokyo-Shimoda is spot on. The only minor difference is your Ito-Shimoda train arrives at 11.10.

The Shimoda to Irozaki boat only seems to operate on Saturday, Sunday and Monday during March except 25-31 March when it sails every day. It takes about 40 minutes one way.

9.40 From Shimoda
11.20
14.00

10.30 From Irozaki
13.10
14.50

There are some buses from Irozaki which go north to a place called Kissho, where you might be able to catch a Shimoda-Dogashima bus (and I’m still working on this option) but the easiest way might be to return to Shimoda either by boat or by bus and to catch a bus to Dogashima from there. If catching a bus you have to walk a short distance (one minute by bus) to Irozaki-ko guchi (Entrance to Irozaki Port) for a bus to Shimoda.

14.40 – 15.18 Irozaki-ko guchi – Shimoda
15.15 – 15.53

Bus from Shimoda to Dogashima

14.05 – 15.03
15.20 – 16.18
15.55 – 16.41 (not on Sunday)
16.05 – 17.03

I’ll have to express my prejudice against popular Japanese spa resorts here (i.e. Shuzenji) . Also if you travel from Dogashima to Shuzenji in early evening according to your plan you might miss some of the nicest scenery of western Izu. It would be best to stay near Dogashima and travel north in the morning.

OK, my lunch hour is up. More later

NewbieRunner

Here are some snippets about Dogashima:

Sunset time
http://www.izudougasima-yuransen.com/sunset.htm

Boat trips
http://www.izudougasima-yuransen.com/annai/annai.htm

Panoramic view
http://www.shizuoka-guide.com/englis.../dougasima.htm

Traditional buildings of Matsuzaki
http://www.geocities.jp/umi2001_2/ta...a-matuzaki.htm

Dogashima – Shuzenji bus
8.28 – 10.32 (express to Mishima)
8.58 – 10.30
9.28 – 11.00
9.56 – 11.47 (express to Mishima - Sat & Sun only)
10.08 – 11.40