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-   -   Refused entry to Japan (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan/2097133-refused-entry-japan.html)

jib71 Oct 11, 2022 8:07 pm


Originally Posted by JL41 (Post 34673497)
IThat said, I'm not familiar with the level of discretion Japanese officers are given.

I believe the level of discretion given to border agents was pretty much zero in relation to pandemic-related border controls. Many people find it very strange that "pandemic-related border controls" were in place until yesterday. I think that's another topic for another thread. Prior to the pandemic, in my experience there was some discretion.

RRROOO Oct 11, 2022 8:46 pm

It sounds like he arranged a tour of a piano factory from a Japanese Tour Operator

uanj Oct 11, 2022 8:48 pm


Originally Posted by fimo (Post 34672142)
I'm wondering if that pdf form was not a visa - but the ERFS that allows you to apply for a visa from the Japanese embassy/consultate. It sounds like you possibly missed the most important step of getting a visa issued in your passport. There might have been some misunderstanding in what the Houston consulate told you - they're not wrong that tourist visas are done through a tour group, but unless you handed your passport over to the tour agency and delegated them the authority to apply for a visa with the consulate and embassy using the ERFS, then you only had the first step completed. The consulate's message is probably that you cannot directly apply for a visa without an agency/business providing you the ERFS.

I agree.

I got several special entry visas during the pandemic restrictions from different countries. How is an ER doctor like the OP to know the difference between ERFS approval and visa approval? Over the years I have had many visas, like Vietnam, where I presented the visa approval pdf upon arrival and the visa was put in my passport at the airport. If the travel agency/tour organizer did not provide clear instructions I can see how the OP did not realize he had to go to the Japanese consulate to get the actual visa.

The immigration officer has no real leeway in Japan, they are sticklers for rules. The rules were changing for passengers scheduled to arrive on or after a certain date. He did not meet that criteria. Most, not all, but most countries' immigration officers would have done the same.

OP, when you have time check with the Japanese consulate and ask them if you will be free to enter with visa waiver in the future. Many countries do not allow visa waiver entry for people who have been denied entry or deported. If you need to apply for a visa, you will need to do it in advance. I expect you will get it with no real difficulty, just allow enough time when applying. It would be good to keep clear records of what happened this time and an apology and explanation from the tour organizer will be very helpful if you need a visa.

nk15 Oct 11, 2022 9:34 pm


Originally Posted by MSPeconomist (Post 34673452)
It would help to know the following:

1. Did the travel agent actually send the OP the ERFS document?

2. What did the email to the OP say about the attached "visa"? If the travel agent emailed something to the OP that the travel agent identified as a visa, IMO the situation was totally the travel agent's fault.

I googled it and it looks like that this is a sample of an ERFS document below. So what likely happened is that all three of the JP tour agent, the traveler, and the UA gate agent mistook this for a Visa...It slipped through three layers without being caught...


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...d9fabaed34.jpg


See also this brief description of the process by a blogger...

Japan Non-Guided Tour & ERFS Issuance For Tourist Visa Purposes

Lux Flyer Oct 11, 2022 10:15 pm


Originally Posted by JamesBigglesworth (Post 34673189)
Usual period following deportation is 5 or 10 years, depending on the actual grounds they filed it all under. It will also automatically disqualify you from entering ~75 other countries under a visa waiver.

If you want to visit any of those countries within that time, even if it's a visa waiver country to you, in all those cases you will need to apply for a visa if you want to be relatively sure you'll be admitted.

Which is very important, because no airline is going to validate a passenger's individual circumstance to determine whether they qualify for a visa waiver program for a specific country. If someone presents a passport that normally qualifies for a visa waiver program, the airline isn't going to make them show a visa, even if their individual circumstance requires it. So OP really needs to figure out how Japan actually recorded this and what implications this has for their international travel going forward.


Originally Posted by nk15 (Post 34673807)
I googled it and it looks like that this is a sample of an ERFS document below. So what likely happened is that all three of the JP tour agent, the traveler, and the UA gate agent mistook this for a Visa...It slipped through three layers without being caught...


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...d9fabaed34.jpg

If this, or something similar is what was presented then I could easily see an airline employee mistaking it as being a visa, especially for destination that prior to the pandemic did not routinely require visas. Regardless, whatever the tour guide and passenger received they thought it was the visa, so there's no reason to expect an airline employee is going to think anything different. Visas come in all shapes and sizes, airlines aren't in the business of validating it as being authentic or even the correct visa for a passenger's circumstance. All they need to do is show due dilligence that they reviewed the entry requirements for the passenger and they presented what appeared to be the correct documents. The validity of the documents to the individual's travel situation are up to the individual countries border staff to figure out, else we might as well deputize the airline gate staff for every country they manage a departure too if we're going to expect them to make advanced determinations on visa validity.


Originally Posted by Ghoulish (Post 34672950)
More likely "we can just use her return ticket" vs the usual "we need to eat the return fare like we do 99% of the time with immigration refusal".

This, of course assumes this was actually a purchased J fare and not upgraded with some form of upgrade currency.

nk15 Oct 11, 2022 10:19 pm

I don't think it is too unreasonable or that hard to train Gate Agents who work on international flights at major hubs, like ORD, to recognize what a visa looks like for a handful of international destinations. Perhaps they could show them some samples, or do a 5-minute training, or send a memo. It is not that complicated.

They are flying flights to Japan, they know that the country now requires a visa for US citizens, it is not that hard to train your gate agents.

I also assume that the OP was not the only American on that flight to TYO. How did the GA clear everyone else with a visa, and the OP with an ERFS....that should have rung alarm bells.

sha8192 Oct 11, 2022 10:47 pm


Originally Posted by Lux Flyer (Post 34673868)
If this, or something similar is what was presented then I could easily see an airline employee mistaking it as being a visa, especially for destination that prior to the pandemic did not routinely require visas. Regardless, whatever the tour guide and passenger received they thought it was the visa, so there's no reason to expect an airline employee is going to think anything different. Visas come in all shapes and sizes, airlines aren't in the business of validating it as being authentic or even the correct visa for a passenger's circumstance. All they need to do is show due dilligence that they reviewed the entry requirements for the passenger and they presented what appeared to be the correct documents. The validity of the documents to the individual's travel situation are up to the individual countries border staff to figure out, else we might as well deputize the airline gate staff for every country they manage a departure too if we're going to expect them to make advanced determinations on visa validity.

From my limited experience, usually the airline system (e.g. Amadeus) will require a document number (e.g. visa number) and a expiry date to be input into the system.
I can see the application id in the sample which can be interpreted as document number, but no where can I find anything that is similar to expiry date.
Then depending on the level of integration of the destination country’s custom system, Amadeus can transmit this information to them to validate the visa information.

This is all based on my personal experience with AC (who uses Amadeus) but not UA. I once attempt to fly to DUB under a UK visa, checkin agent had to input information from my UK visa and obviously Ireland custom system was rejecting that info. The checkin agent even showed his screen to me quoting this was what Ireland custom system says about my visa.
I had to pull the Britain-Ireland visa waiver program website for the agent and argued about the interpretation. He believed I can only go to Ireland from UK, while I told him that I only need to enter UK once to activate my UK visa before going to Ireland. In the end the agent had to consult his supervisor and apparently the supervisor wasn’t sure either. In the end they decided to flip a coin (what I was told) and I won.

joejones Oct 12, 2022 7:17 am


Originally Posted by invalyd (Post 34673502)
This is Japan though. I doubt there was much if any discretion available on the part of the immigration officer

Well, let me tell you a story. Back in January 2006 I traveled to Japan as a student. Due to a snafu I didn't get my Certificate of Eligibility in time to apply for a student visa in time for the program to start. The school told me to fly to Narita anyway and show them the COE. I was taken to a back room at immigration and held for an hour or two. Eventually an immigration officer asked me to write a written apology for not having a visa, which initially pissed me off because I was simply following my school's instructions. But I went along with it, and promptly got a one-year admission stamp in my passport, called Special Landing Permission (上陸特別許可). So yes, they have discretion.

And all the comments about Japanese xenophobia are unfounded. The reason for all these entry restrictions was that Japan was trying to cap the number of people coming into the country from overseas as a way of stemming the inflow of COVID cases until a critical mass of the population was vaccinated. Japan couldn't restrict entry by nationals because they have a constitutional right to come home. So they shut down entry by foreigners and then re-opened it in stages. To the extent that Japanese people complain about foreign tourists at all, 95% of their complaints specifically pertain to tour groups from mainland China.

Ghoulish Oct 12, 2022 7:32 am


Originally Posted by invalyd (Post 34673508)
I'm not sure why you firmly believe any other country in the world would have allowed OP to enter. I suppose having dealt with spiteful US immigration officials way too many times over the years, I am a little more jaded than you about their so-called compassion.

Are you not looking at the facts of this specific case? The restrictions being enforced were literally ending in an amount of time equating to a long layover.

Japanese immigration officials, like the overwhelming majority around the world, have wide latitude under law to exercise discretion.

It's well documented in the work of the small army of legal professionals employed to battle Japanese immigration's barely disguised rapidly xenophobic treatment of all foreign travelers. A hatred of the "filthy gaigin" only inflamed by Covid to an extent unmatched by any country in the world.

If indeed you've encountered "spiteful" US immigration officials, were you actually deported? Could they have? I presume if they were "spiteful", something about you paperwork wasn't in perfect order and yet, you almost certainly weren't deported.

Deportation in practice is reserved for egregious cases, not simple errors and certainly not in a case where common sense would prevail at one of the numerous levels of review that would take place before you were forced back into a plane.

There is simply no comparison. Japanese officials stand alone as uniquely contemptuous of foreigners, it's no secret, it's very long standing, it's not limited to a handful of bad apples, and there's no denying it.

invalyd Oct 12, 2022 8:04 am


Originally Posted by Ghoulish (Post 34674731)
Japanese immigration officials, like the overwhelming majority around the world, have wide latitude under law to exercise discretion.


​​​​​Deportation in practice is reserved for egregious cases, not simple errors and certainly not in a case where common sense would prevail at one of the numerous levels of review that would take place before you were forced back into a plane.

What makes you so sure of this? Please share your source. Until then, it's pure speculation on your part.


Originally Posted by Ghoulish (Post 34674731)
If indeed you've encountered "spiteful" US immigration officials, were you actually deported? Could they have? I presume if they were "spiteful", something about you paperwork wasn't in perfect order and yet, you almost certainly weren't deported.

My papers have always been in order, so no. If I showed up without a valid visa, I would fully expect to be deported.

You can keep pushing your xenophobic agenda all you want, but at the end of the day, OP was not legally admissable without a valid visa. It doesn't really matter if it was one hour, forty hours or two weeks. Immigration laws are not subjective.

JL41 Oct 12, 2022 8:15 am


Originally Posted by joejones (Post 34674694)
And all the comments about Japanese xenophobia are unfounded. The reason for all these entry restrictions was that Japan was trying to cap the number of people coming into the country from overseas as a way of stemming the inflow of COVID cases until a critical mass of the population was vaccinated. Japan couldn't restrict entry by nationals because they have a constitutional right to come home. So they shut down entry by foreigners and then re-opened it in stages. To the extent that Japanese people complain about foreign tourists at all, 95% of their complaints specifically pertain to tour groups from mainland China.

While xenophobia might not have directly played a part in what happened to OP, xenophobia was certainly a driving factor in the suspension of visa waiver reciprocity that led to OP's situation. Japan's entry restrictions were discriminatory in ways that were unique amongst the G7. For a time, permanent residents born in Japan and who had only ever lived in Japan were denied re-entry. For most of the pandemic, family members of most non-Japanese living in Japan were banned while family members of Japanese were allowed. Japan also callously mislead international students and prospective employees regarding re-opening, leading many into debt and other hardship. And as time went by, Japanese policy did not seem to evolve in line with any science or global best practice. Japan did not listen to constructive criticism from their international community.

Xenophobia is an issue throughout the world, but in Japan it can often have a sharper edge when it comes to your legal rights. When we are denied access to restaurants on account of our skin colour despite speaking fluent Japanese, there is no legal protection. When we are denied housing for having a foreign-sounding name, there is no legal protection.

Don't get me wrong, I like living in Japan and I think Japanese people are generally lovely, but there is no reason to deny that xenophobia has an impact here.

Topcare Oct 12, 2022 8:18 am

Japan's treatment of immigration cases and lack of any process, transparency or recourse on the same pales in comparison to some US border agent having a bad day.

invalyd Oct 12, 2022 8:26 am


Originally Posted by Ghoulish (Post 34674731)
There is simply no comparison. Japanese officials stand alone as uniquely contemptuous of foreigners, it's no secret, it's very long standing, it's not limited to a handful of bad apples, and there's no denying it.

In that case perhaps you should try showing up to to Dubai, China, Korea, Thailand, Italy, Netherlands, Brazil or even the US without a visa and let us know how it works out for you. Surely they will let you in with their wide latitude of discretion as you're simply a naive foreigner who didn't know the rules.

findark Oct 12, 2022 9:09 am


Originally Posted by nk15 (Post 34673872)
I don't think it is too unreasonable or that hard to train Gate Agents who work on international flights at major hubs, like ORD, to recognize what a visa looks like for a handful of international destinations. Perhaps they could show them some samples, or do a 5-minute training, or send a memo. It is not that complicated.

They are flying flights to Japan, they know that the country now requires a visa for US citizens, it is not that hard to train your gate agents.

I also assume that the OP was not the only American on that flight to TYO. How did the GA clear everyone else with a visa, and the OP with an ERFS....that should have rung alarm bells.

The tourist visa system for Japan was only in place for a very short period, and it's normally a country with a visa waiver program. I think you underestimate how long it takes for corporate to do a "training program" for anything in particular.

UA will perform the document validity check at the point of first check-in. It's quite possible that OP was the only American in AUS going to Japan that day, and even more likely the only one on that flight departing AUS.

invalyd Oct 12, 2022 9:11 am


Originally Posted by findark (Post 34675018)
The tourist visa system for Japan was only in place for a very short period, and it's normally a country with a visa waiver program.

The visa waiver program has been suspended for 2.5 years. That should be plenty of time to train your gate agents as to what a valid Japanese visa looks like.


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