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Originally Posted by donjo
(Post 34671762)
I had contacted the Japanese consulate in Houston and they replied a couple of months ago that all tourist visas needed to be done through a tour group. The tour guide I hired agreed to obtain the visa on my behalf. About a week after supplying her with all the necessary demographic information she emailed me my "visa," as a .pdf form. I could not have applied for a tourist visa on my own even if I had wanted to based on their restrictions.
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Originally Posted by Ghoulish
(Post 34672084)
There is no difference in a short term business trip or tourist status for US travelers to Japan and vice versa under an agreement with with United States.
The visa requirement is entirely part of temporary covid restrictions and if anything, business trips were given deference under those temporary requirements where tourism was not. So in 30 hours, no visa would've been required in either case. Again, discretion could've been easily exercised, but, you know, not all are pleased at the return of gaigin to Japan's pristine land. So now it seems possible that the OP received the electronic approval but did not go forward with actually applying for the e-visa online, but that theory I believe would depend on when the trip was booked. IIRC, when Japan initially “opened”, only supervised tours were allowed from designated vendors who took care of the entire process including getting the visa issued. So question for the OP - did you have an actual visa embossed in your passport or can you post a copy of what you presented to immigration with your personal details redacted? Maybe someone knowledgeable here can recognize what happened. |
Originally Posted by bocastephen
(Post 34672162)
So now it seems possible that the OP received the electronic approval but did not go forward with actually applying for the e-visa online, but that theory I believe would depend on when the trip was booked. IIRC, when Japan initially “opened”, only supervised tours were allowed from designated vendors who took care of the entire process including getting the visa issued.
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Originally Posted by donjo
(Post 34672038)
Yes, relied on the tour guide and they failed to fulfill what they promised. They offered to refund me $1000 of the tour package for their mistake. The tour guide also informed me that I may be banned from the re-entering Japan for a period of time to be determined because of this error. I am waiting to hear how long that might be.
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Based on bad advice, I showed up at the British Virgin Islands with improper documents by boat. I had an Enhanced Driver’s license because I was told they were a member of the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative and they weren’t. They lectured me, I gave them a puppy eyes apology and was paroled in.
Japan and Australia are the two difficult allies. Australia will try to work through the problem but their anti-immigration policies have had the spillover effect of stripping border agent’s of granting discretionary admissions which their counterparts in other countries have. British notions of procedural fairness soften the blow a little, but don’t go far enough. Japan is also problematic on criminal inadmissibility. In theory, there is no discretionary waivers even for very old criminal offenses even which have been expunged or pardoned. How Paul McCartney gets into Japan demonstrates there is an exception for the very rich and connected, but they will deny it until the cows come home. |
Originally Posted by donjo
(Post 34671692)
she replied that the visa was appropriately filled out but she had not filed it with the correct authorities.
This is such an unfortunate set of circumstances, and I'm sorry to hear it. It sounds like you did everything you thought you needed to: you first contacted the consulate, who told you you needed a Japanese tour operator to arrange for things. You did so, and relied on them to do the paperwork, not knowing the distinction between an ERFS certificate and a visa. And, the airline didn't catch it. Had you been following the thread here on FT on such matters, you probably would have caught it, but you were probably doing more important things, like saving your patients' lives. So, now you have a deportation record in Japan, |
Originally Posted by Lux Flyer
(Post 34671802)
I've tried really hard to avoid replying in this thread as I have some further thoughts on the matter, but I'm going to keep it limited.
But unfortunately "what would have been the case in less than 2 days" doesn't matter. Its the regulations that are in effect on the specified date/time, not what it's going to be. Do we also say to the airlines "well this fare in less than 2 days after I want to fly is $500 cheaper, so just give it to me on the day I want?" or "in less than 2 days I don't need a VISA, so just let me fly today without showing I've obtained a VISA" :rolleyes: And the OP already told us where they have already identified where fault lies for this situation So that being said, I'm really confused why this is related to United at all, continues to be discussed in the UA forum and whether they were right or wrong in the situation, beyond the fact that they were the carrier who was transporting the passenger. This is ultimately a VISA/immigration issue and the situation would have been the same regardless if it was UA, AA, DL or even ANA who transported the passenger. Except they might have actually charged the passenger the cost of the airfare for the return. If anything OP should be grateful they didn't have any more out of pocket expenses for what was a massive mistake, as they have indicated, by their tour agency.
Originally Posted by fimo
(Post 34672142)
I'm wondering if that pdf form was not a visa - but the ERFS that allows you to apply for a visa from the Japanese embassy/consultate. It sounds like you possibly missed the most important step of getting a visa issued in your passport. There might have been some misunderstanding in what the Houston consulate told you - they're not wrong that tourist visas are done through a tour group, but unless you handed your passport over to the tour agency and delegated them the authority to apply for a visa with the consulate and embassy using the ERFS, then you only had the first step completed. The consulate's message is probably that you cannot directly apply for a visa without an agency/business providing you the ERFS.
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Originally Posted by donjo
(Post 34672038)
Yes, relied on the tour guide and they failed to fulfill what they promised. They offered to refund me $1000 of the tour package for their mistake. The tour guide also informed me that I may be banned from the re-entering Japan for a period of time to be determined because of this error. I am waiting to hear how long that might be.
Is the travel agent saying that the visa application wasn't filed with *any* Japanese government agency or that it was filed but it was filed with the wrong agency? Could there have been miscommunication (does the travel agent have good English, assuming you used a travel agent in Japan?) with the travel agent sending you a document that you needed to use to get a visa but the travel agent not explaining this to you? Could it be that the travel agent doesn't understand the process at all and is inexperienced in dealing with foreigners who need visas (under the now out-of-date rules)? Were you instructed to show the emailed "visa document" to your airline and to border officials? Did the travel agent send you something in Japanese or in English or both? Did the document say "VISA"? |
Originally Posted by donjo
(Post 34672038)
The tour guide also informed me that I may be banned from the re-entering Japan for a period of time to be determined because of this error. I am waiting to hear how long that might be.
I am not sure what happened to you but it seems to me that you were "denied entry" rather than "deported." Getting deported happens, for example, when people overstay their visas or get caught in violation of the terms of their visas. In such cases, they are typically prohibited from entering to Japan for some time. If you were denied entry because of an error in documentation you may find that you are free to enter Japan when you have satisfactory documentation. As of today (October 11) there is no longer a visa requirement, so the documentation requirements are minimal. Of course, you should check with a Japanese embassy. Speaking from personal experience of having been denied entry to Canada over 20 years ago - It has not prevented me from visiting and even working there, but it does mean that I get called for secondary interview when I arrive. That's inconvenient and time consuming but not disastrous. I think that there are two points that you need to deal with: 1) Establish what happened and what was at fault with your documentation You need to establish what was wrong with the documentation that you had. It's possible that the agent made an error in the application. In that case, I think it's likely that you can get some compensation from the agent. (I am not a lawyer). It's also possible that the agent issued you with the certificate for ERFS registration, which you were required to take to a Japanese embassy to get a visa issued. In that case it may be difficult to establish who is at fault. Were you instructed to get on the plane with just the certificate? 2) Establish whether you are subject to any restriction on entry to Japan First of all, I think you need to clear up the confusion about what happened (see point 1 above) and then discuss the matter with a Japanese embassy or consulate. I presume that you received some paperwork when you were sent back to the US? Keep it all to document what happened,. I hope that you can recover quickly from the trauma and that you soon get clarity on what went wrong and what you can do about it. I feel optimistic that you will be able to visit Japan again soon. |
Originally Posted by JimInOhio
(Post 34672444)
The airlines can't really charge the customer for the return because they weren't the ones requesting the transportation. If anything, the airline would charge the government of Japan because they were the ones demanding the passenger be put on the plane.
Rule 19 from United's (posted in the 2nd reply of this thread) clearly indicates the passenger is agreeing to pay the applicable fare for being returned on government order. And United isn't the only one with this language. Delta in Rule 16b of their contract of carriage (https://www.delta.com/us/en/legal/co...f-carriage-igr) Subject to applicable laws and regulations, the passenger agrees to pay the applicable fare whenever Carrier, on government order, is required to return a passenger to his point of origin or elsewhere due to the passenger's inadmissibility into or deportation from a country, whether of transit or of destination. The fare applicable will be the fare that would have been applicable had the original ticket designated the revised destination on the new ticket Similarly in AA's contract of carriage (https://www.aa.com/content/images/ta...nal-tariff.pdf), rule 45b(2) Subject to applicable laws and regulations, the passenger agrees to pay the applicable fare whenever carrier, on government order, is required to return a passenger to his point of origin or elsewhere due to the passenger's inadmissibility into or deportation from a country, whether of transit or of destination. The fare applicable will be the fare that would have been applicable had the original ticket designated the revised destination on the new ticket.
Originally Posted by JimInOhio
(Post 34672444)
Besides, there might not have been a charge anyway considering they would (likely) have a credit for canceling their original return.
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Originally Posted by Lux Flyer
(Post 34672499)
Do we pretend the contract of carriage doesn't exist or that somehow it's not being agreed to when we purchase a ticket?
Rule 19 from United's (posted in the 2nd reply of this thread) clearly indicates the passenger is agreeing to pay the applicable fare for being returned on government order. And United isn't the only one with this language. Delta in Rule 16b of their contract of carriage (https://www.delta.com/us/en/legal/co...f-carriage-igr) Similarly in AA's contract of carriage (https://www.aa.com/content/images/ta...nal-tariff.pdf), rule 45b(2) And no, that's not a mistake that the quotes are exactly the same, all the carriers use the exact same language with regards to this situation. I won't quote the United contract of carriage since it was previously posted, but yes it is the exact same language too if you don't want to look back at that post. My gut is this is standard language published by IATA and you will find it on every airline that has an international tariff. Yes they could have a credit for the return, since this was hopefully a round trip, and that would likely be applied. But if the fare had a Saturday night stay or other minimum stay requirement, which a good majority of international round trip do unless they are unrestricted fares, that was no longer being met, the airline could come back on that front too. Basically the rule in each of them allows the airline, at their discretion, to charge the applicable fare for what is actually flown because that is what the passenger is agreeing to allow them to do by accepting the contract of carriage and choosing to fly on the airline. |
Originally Posted by JimInOhio
(Post 34672521)
Trying to extract even more money from a customer, who's already paid many thousands, in this situation is a losing proposition for any airline. It's probably why I've never personally heard of an airline actually going ahead with such a boneheaded move.
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I have never had to apply for a visa for entering Japan. Since when was this a requirement?
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Originally Posted by TokyoFoodie
(Post 34672588)
I have never had to apply for a visa for entering Japan. Since when was this a requirement?
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Originally Posted by TokyoFoodie
(Post 34672588)
I have never had to apply for a visa for entering Japan. Since when was this a requirement?
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