Refused entry to Japan
#136
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The new entry procedure for Japan:
Japan is Open for Visa-Free Tourism! Here's What You Need to Know Before Going - Travel Codex
Japan is Open for Visa-Free Tourism! Here's What You Need to Know Before Going - Travel Codex
#137




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I flew DCA-DFW-NRT in June on AA. They did a perfunctory check at the DCA check-in counter, but the gate agents at DFW re-checked all of the Japan entry documents in detail before we got boarding passes for the international leg. Presumably because those agents were the only ones who knew what they were doing.

Now that the restrictions to enter Japan has lifted, I wonder if this is still going on with DFW-NRT flight on AA. There are still connecting passengers heading to the countries with the entry restrictions, so it is possible that this is still going on.
#138




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This was a typical occurrence even prior to COVID.
The first time I flew there (8 years ago) I recall getting to the gate from the lounge to hear my name being called out just before boarding was to begin...only slightly anxiety producing
The first time I flew there (8 years ago) I recall getting to the gate from the lounge to hear my name being called out just before boarding was to begin...only slightly anxiety producing
#139
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UA is required sometimes to make a good faith effort to check visas, but they don't go into detail of them beyond a minimal scan - usually of the validity dates and country. UA can't verify the actual validity of a visa beyond a superficial check (UA puts that on the passenger) - and UA does assume the risk that the destination authorities may put a passenger back on a return flight.
#140
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Back in paper ticket days, they'd probably just have lifted the coupon for the return journey and let the back office sort it out.
#141




Join Date: May 2017
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They absolutely can. It's in every major airline's conditions of carriage.
Very funny. But no. That doesn't happen. Ever.
Because the airport agent saw something that looked sufficiently like a visa to allow them to board.
The airlines don't pursue a lot of customers for the cost of removal because the legal and other costs of doing so will often exceed the amount claimed, especially when it isn't clear that the customer will be able to pay the judgment.
Back in paper ticket days, they'd probably just have lifted the coupon for the return journey and let the back office sort it out.
Very funny. But no. That doesn't happen. Ever.
Because the airport agent saw something that looked sufficiently like a visa to allow them to board.
The airlines don't pursue a lot of customers for the cost of removal because the legal and other costs of doing so will often exceed the amount claimed, especially when it isn't clear that the customer will be able to pay the judgment.
Back in paper ticket days, they'd probably just have lifted the coupon for the return journey and let the back office sort it out.
2.23.13 Inadmissible Passengers
-Delivering carrier is responsible for ticketing the inadmissible passenger to new location advised by authorities
-If passenger has a return ticket that should be used. If the return ticket isn't valid for the destination they're being sent to, any remaining coupon value on the ticket should be applied towards the new flights
-Endorsement/fare restriction requirements are waived
-If the passengers remaining ticket doesn't cover the new flight they're being put on, the delivering carrier should collect the fare difference
-If the passenger can't pay the fare difference, the delivering carrier still needs to ticket them for the outbound flight, however the cost is split among all carriers who participated in transporting the passenger to the point of inadmissibility.
The last point is important, because in that case where the passenger can't cover the fare difference, the airlines obligation is only to return them to the point dictated by authorities, not necessarily their origin. So if for example the itinerary was ORD-SEA on BB and SEA-TYO on CC. Passenger is refused in TYO and airline ordered to send them back to the states. If the passenger can't pay the fare difference, the only obligation of CC is to get them back to the states, not necessarily to ORD (and BB & CC would share the cost for the TYO-USA flight the passenger needs to be put on).
Also as others have discussed there is a distinction between inadmissible person and deportee. An inadmissible person is refused entry/ordered removed before ever being allowed in, therefore they're not a deportee. On the other hand, a deportee is someone who was legally admitted to a country and then later ordered to be removed. When it is an inadmissible person, it is that person/the airlines responsibility to cover the fare of the transportation. When it is a deportee, it is the country (subject to local laws/regulations) ordering the removal who needs to provide the ticket fare.
#142

Join Date: Nov 2012
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Do we pretend the contract of carriage doesn't exist or that somehow it's not being agreed to when we purchase a ticket?
Rule 19 from United's (posted in the 2nd reply of this thread) clearly indicates the passenger is agreeing to pay the applicable fare for being returned on government order. And United isn't the only one with this language.
Delta in Rule 16b of their contract of carriage (https://www.delta.com/us/en/legal/co...f-carriage-igr)
Similarly in AA's contract of carriage (https://www.aa.com/content/images/ta...nal-tariff.pdf), rule 45b(2)
And no, that's not a mistake that the quotes are exactly the same, all the carriers use the exact same language with regards to this situation. I won't quote the United contract of carriage since it was previously posted, but yes it is the exact same language too if you don't want to look back at that post. My gut is this is standard language published by IATA and you will find it on every airline that has an international tariff.
Yes they could have a credit for the return, since this was hopefully a round trip, and that would likely be applied. But if the fare had a Saturday night stay or other minimum stay requirement, which a good majority of international round trip do unless they are unrestricted fares, that was no longer being met, the airline could come back on that front too. Basically the rule in each of them allows the airline, at their discretion, to charge the applicable fare for what is actually flown because that is what the passenger is agreeing to allow them to do by accepting the contract of carriage and choosing to fly on the airline.
Rule 19 from United's (posted in the 2nd reply of this thread) clearly indicates the passenger is agreeing to pay the applicable fare for being returned on government order. And United isn't the only one with this language.
Delta in Rule 16b of their contract of carriage (https://www.delta.com/us/en/legal/co...f-carriage-igr)
Similarly in AA's contract of carriage (https://www.aa.com/content/images/ta...nal-tariff.pdf), rule 45b(2)
And no, that's not a mistake that the quotes are exactly the same, all the carriers use the exact same language with regards to this situation. I won't quote the United contract of carriage since it was previously posted, but yes it is the exact same language too if you don't want to look back at that post. My gut is this is standard language published by IATA and you will find it on every airline that has an international tariff.
Yes they could have a credit for the return, since this was hopefully a round trip, and that would likely be applied. But if the fare had a Saturday night stay or other minimum stay requirement, which a good majority of international round trip do unless they are unrestricted fares, that was no longer being met, the airline could come back on that front too. Basically the rule in each of them allows the airline, at their discretion, to charge the applicable fare for what is actually flown because that is what the passenger is agreeing to allow them to do by accepting the contract of carriage and choosing to fly on the airline.
#143

Join Date: Nov 2012
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And as others have said, the responsibility for holding correct documentation always lies 100% with the passenger, not the airline. Any checks that the airline makes on departure are purely to protect themselves against fines or sanctions by the receiving country and not as an additional layer of protection for the passenger, even though refusal to accept a passenger for a flight might have that same outcome.
#144
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So interestingly, I was reviewing my copy of the IATA ticketing handbook (a PDF of the 39th ed from 2007 is readily available online with a simple google search) which has guidance for this exact situation. I actually thought of this thread, but wasn't going to bring it back up, but now that someone else has I'll add what the ticketing handbook states in
2.23.13 Inadmissible Passengers
-Delivering carrier is responsible for ticketing the inadmissible passenger to new location advised by authorities
-If passenger has a return ticket that should be used. If the return ticket isn't valid for the destination they're being sent to, any remaining coupon value on the ticket should be applied towards the new flights
-Endorsement/fare restriction requirements are waived
-If the passengers remaining ticket doesn't cover the new flight they're being put on, the delivering carrier should collect the fare difference
-If the passenger can't pay the fare difference, the delivering carrier still needs to ticket them for the outbound flight, however the cost is split among all carriers who participated in transporting the passenger to the point of inadmissibility.
The last point is important, because in that case where the passenger can't cover the fare difference, the airlines obligation is only to return them to the point dictated by authorities, not necessarily their origin. So if for example the itinerary was ORD-SEA on BB and SEA-TYO on CC. Passenger is refused in TYO and airline ordered to send them back to the states. If the passenger can't pay the fare difference, the only obligation of CC is to get them back to the states, not necessarily to ORD (and BB & CC would share the cost for the TYO-USA flight the passenger needs to be put on).
2.23.13 Inadmissible Passengers
-Delivering carrier is responsible for ticketing the inadmissible passenger to new location advised by authorities
-If passenger has a return ticket that should be used. If the return ticket isn't valid for the destination they're being sent to, any remaining coupon value on the ticket should be applied towards the new flights
-Endorsement/fare restriction requirements are waived
-If the passengers remaining ticket doesn't cover the new flight they're being put on, the delivering carrier should collect the fare difference
-If the passenger can't pay the fare difference, the delivering carrier still needs to ticket them for the outbound flight, however the cost is split among all carriers who participated in transporting the passenger to the point of inadmissibility.
The last point is important, because in that case where the passenger can't cover the fare difference, the airlines obligation is only to return them to the point dictated by authorities, not necessarily their origin. So if for example the itinerary was ORD-SEA on BB and SEA-TYO on CC. Passenger is refused in TYO and airline ordered to send them back to the states. If the passenger can't pay the fare difference, the only obligation of CC is to get them back to the states, not necessarily to ORD (and BB & CC would share the cost for the TYO-USA flight the passenger needs to be put on).
Also as others have discussed there is a distinction between inadmissible person and deportee. An inadmissible person is refused entry/ordered removed before ever being allowed in, therefore they're not a deportee. On the other hand, a deportee is someone who was legally admitted to a country and then later ordered to be removed. When it is an inadmissible person, it is that person/the airlines responsibility to cover the fare of the transportation. When it is a deportee, it is the country (subject to local laws/regulations) ordering the removal who needs to provide the ticket fare.
#145
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Good riddance. I am sure your presence will be sorely missed.
#146
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IATA rules are all well and good but are an agreement between carriers. The agreement between the carrier and the passenger is the carrier's conditions of carriage. And the conditions of carriage allow the carrier to sue the passenger for the excess fare in this instance.
IATA has an agreement to split the cost of doing this among the delivering carrier(s) should it happen.
The operating carrier can, under its contract of carriage, pursue damages from the passenger for the costs it incurs. In practice, this last step almost never happens because (a) in the case of a round-trip ticket, the return coupon is normally used, and (b) I would imagine in most other cases, the pax can obviously not afford the additional cost, so it's not worth pursuing.
#147
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The issue is now moot as the visa waiver program has restarted. The thread is now "Japan sucks," vs. "Passenger sucks," and the OP has left the discussion - which is too bad because I was hoping that we might hear from the OP after a successful visit to Japan.
Time to close the thread?
Time to close the thread?
#148
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#149
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No he had an ERFS document, which is in effect a visa invitation letter that you bring to the embassy or consulate to document the receiving/inviting organisation. These are quite common to apply for visas for many countries. I would imagine certain nationalities would even need them for entering the US. I have been issued more visa invitation letters than I can possibly remember.
The issue is that many of us EU and US passport holders have forgotten what it actually means when you are required to go through a full visa process. As we had the benefit prepandemic of very rarely having to do it. The ERFS process was not particularly badly described or cumbersome at the point where you could start entering as self organised tours.
The surprising point was that it was there for a country that we fortunate EU and US passport holders used to be able to just waltz into, and people got caught in not having done their preparations. And United got caught in not checking the documents properly.
No wonder ANA and JAL does a full document check for connecting passengers before letting them board the plane to Japan.
The issue is that many of us EU and US passport holders have forgotten what it actually means when you are required to go through a full visa process. As we had the benefit prepandemic of very rarely having to do it. The ERFS process was not particularly badly described or cumbersome at the point where you could start entering as self organised tours.
The surprising point was that it was there for a country that we fortunate EU and US passport holders used to be able to just waltz into, and people got caught in not having done their preparations. And United got caught in not checking the documents properly.
No wonder ANA and JAL does a full document check for connecting passengers before letting them board the plane to Japan.
#150




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