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Old Oct 17, 2022 | 2:06 pm
  #136  
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The new entry procedure for Japan:

Japan is Open for Visa-Free Tourism! Here's What You Need to Know Before Going - Travel Codex
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Old Oct 17, 2022 | 3:18 pm
  #137  
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Originally Posted by joejones
I flew DCA-DFW-NRT in June on AA. They did a perfunctory check at the DCA check-in counter, but the gate agents at DFW re-checked all of the Japan entry documents in detail before we got boarding passes for the international leg. Presumably because those agents were the only ones who knew what they were doing.
Same for me when I flew BOS-DFW-NRT on AA in Sept. I did VerFly app with Green Active, and Blue screen on MySOS. I was able to do online check-in at AA.com and at BOS checked baggage and the agent did not ask me to see any documents. At DFW, spending short time at the Flagship lounge I headed to the gate for NRT flight. At the gate I was told I have to get a stamp on my boarding pass. I was not aware of this until I got to the gate. The lounge attendant and agent at BOS did not mention about this. Only one agent was doing this, checking documents and stamping boarding passes, obviously long line. There were two guys heading to Bangkok and were pissed off about the long line to get a stamp on a boarding pass at the gate. One guy said out loud to the agent at the podium; "We are elite and is this the only line?!" They were told to wait in the line, and one guy was saying "AA is going to hear about this!"

Now that the restrictions to enter Japan has lifted, I wonder if this is still going on with DFW-NRT flight on AA. There are still connecting passengers heading to the countries with the entry restrictions, so it is possible that this is still going on.
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Old Oct 18, 2022 | 5:21 am
  #138  
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This was a typical occurrence even prior to COVID.

The first time I flew there (8 years ago) I recall getting to the gate from the lounge to hear my name being called out just before boarding was to begin...only slightly anxiety producing
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Old Oct 19, 2022 | 12:04 am
  #139  
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Originally Posted by IAH-OIL-TRASH
UA is required sometimes to make a good faith effort to check visas, but they don't go into detail of them beyond a minimal scan - usually of the validity dates and country. UA can't verify the actual validity of a visa beyond a superficial check (UA puts that on the passenger) - and UA does assume the risk that the destination authorities may put a passenger back on a return flight.
IME (as detailed elsewhere) UA does not even do a minimal scan, as the GAs missed my expired passport and permitted me to board an international flight. Thankfully I was not deported on arrival due to the discretion of the Dutch immigration service. Of course, most are not so fortunate, particularly in Japan.
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Old Oct 25, 2022 | 5:50 am
  #140  
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Originally Posted by JimInOhio
The airlines can't really charge the customer for the return because they weren't the ones requesting the transportation.
They absolutely can. It's in every major airline's conditions of carriage.
Originally Posted by JimInOhio
If anything, the airline would charge the government of Japan because they were the ones demanding the passenger be put on the plane.
Very funny. But no. That doesn't happen. Ever.

Originally Posted by JimInOhio
If the OP never had a visa for entry then how did UA let the passengers board in the first place? That part doesn't make sense, at least on the surface.
Because the airport agent saw something that looked sufficiently like a visa to allow them to board.
Originally Posted by JimInOhio
Trying to extract even more money from a customer, who's already paid many thousands, in this situation is a losing proposition for any airline. It's probably why I've never personally heard of an airline actually going ahead with such a boneheaded move.
The airlines don't pursue a lot of customers for the cost of removal because the legal and other costs of doing so will often exceed the amount claimed, especially when it isn't clear that the customer will be able to pay the judgment.
Originally Posted by Ghoulish
More likely "we can just use her return ticket" vs the usual "we need to eat the return fare like we do 99% of the time with immigration refusal".
Back in paper ticket days, they'd probably just have lifted the coupon for the return journey and let the back office sort it out.
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Old Oct 25, 2022 | 7:12 am
  #141  
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Originally Posted by stifle
They absolutely can. It's in every major airline's conditions of carriage.

Very funny. But no. That doesn't happen. Ever.


Because the airport agent saw something that looked sufficiently like a visa to allow them to board.

The airlines don't pursue a lot of customers for the cost of removal because the legal and other costs of doing so will often exceed the amount claimed, especially when it isn't clear that the customer will be able to pay the judgment.

Back in paper ticket days, they'd probably just have lifted the coupon for the return journey and let the back office sort it out.
So interestingly, I was reviewing my copy of the IATA ticketing handbook (a PDF of the 39th ed from 2007 is readily available online with a simple google search) which has guidance for this exact situation. I actually thought of this thread, but wasn't going to bring it back up, but now that someone else has I'll add what the ticketing handbook states in
2.23.13 Inadmissible Passengers
-Delivering carrier is responsible for ticketing the inadmissible passenger to new location advised by authorities
-If passenger has a return ticket that should be used. If the return ticket isn't valid for the destination they're being sent to, any remaining coupon value on the ticket should be applied towards the new flights
-Endorsement/fare restriction requirements are waived
-If the passengers remaining ticket doesn't cover the new flight they're being put on, the delivering carrier should collect the fare difference
-If the passenger can't pay the fare difference, the delivering carrier still needs to ticket them for the outbound flight, however the cost is split among all carriers who participated in transporting the passenger to the point of inadmissibility.

The last point is important, because in that case where the passenger can't cover the fare difference, the airlines obligation is only to return them to the point dictated by authorities, not necessarily their origin. So if for example the itinerary was ORD-SEA on BB and SEA-TYO on CC. Passenger is refused in TYO and airline ordered to send them back to the states. If the passenger can't pay the fare difference, the only obligation of CC is to get them back to the states, not necessarily to ORD (and BB & CC would share the cost for the TYO-USA flight the passenger needs to be put on).

Also as others have discussed there is a distinction between inadmissible person and deportee. An inadmissible person is refused entry/ordered removed before ever being allowed in, therefore they're not a deportee. On the other hand, a deportee is someone who was legally admitted to a country and then later ordered to be removed. When it is an inadmissible person, it is that person/the airlines responsibility to cover the fare of the transportation. When it is a deportee, it is the country (subject to local laws/regulations) ordering the removal who needs to provide the ticket fare.
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Old Oct 25, 2022 | 8:34 am
  #142  
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Originally Posted by Lux Flyer
Do we pretend the contract of carriage doesn't exist or that somehow it's not being agreed to when we purchase a ticket?

Rule 19 from United's (posted in the 2nd reply of this thread) clearly indicates the passenger is agreeing to pay the applicable fare for being returned on government order. And United isn't the only one with this language.

Delta in Rule 16b of their contract of carriage (https://www.delta.com/us/en/legal/co...f-carriage-igr)


Similarly in AA's contract of carriage (https://www.aa.com/content/images/ta...nal-tariff.pdf), rule 45b(2)


And no, that's not a mistake that the quotes are exactly the same, all the carriers use the exact same language with regards to this situation. I won't quote the United contract of carriage since it was previously posted, but yes it is the exact same language too if you don't want to look back at that post. My gut is this is standard language published by IATA and you will find it on every airline that has an international tariff.



Yes they could have a credit for the return, since this was hopefully a round trip, and that would likely be applied. But if the fare had a Saturday night stay or other minimum stay requirement, which a good majority of international round trip do unless they are unrestricted fares, that was no longer being met, the airline could come back on that front too. Basically the rule in each of them allows the airline, at their discretion, to charge the applicable fare for what is actually flown because that is what the passenger is agreeing to allow them to do by accepting the contract of carriage and choosing to fly on the airline.
Exactly right. Thank you. Having spent over 20 years in a position involved in these immigration refusals at a major international airport, I agree 100% with all your points.
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Old Oct 25, 2022 | 8:52 am
  #143  
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Originally Posted by JimInOhio
Trying to extract even more money from a customer, who's already paid many thousands, in this situation is a losing proposition for any airline. It's probably why I've never personally heard of an airline actually going ahead with such a boneheaded move.
Sorry if you've never heard of it, Jim, but that is EXACTLY how it works. Airlines are not extracting more money from a customer - they're just using the ticket that was bought for a journey from A to B and back to A for that same journey. It doesn't matter that the flight from B to A isn't on the day originally wanted by the passenger. In all my experience (over 20 years as a manager at a major international airport), we never, ever tried to collect extra for breaking minimum stay requirements etc.,so we merely used whatever ticket was held. However, if they had arrived on a one-way ticket only, we would advise the passenger that the airline was entitled to follow up with a claim for the unpaid flight. We would subsequently complete the internal paperwork, though I seriously doubt that any further action was ever taken by our accounts people!
And as others have said, the responsibility for holding correct documentation always lies 100% with the passenger, not the airline. Any checks that the airline makes on departure are purely to protect themselves against fines or sanctions by the receiving country and not as an additional layer of protection for the passenger, even though refusal to accept a passenger for a flight might have that same outcome.
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Old Oct 25, 2022 | 11:22 am
  #144  
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Originally Posted by Lux Flyer
So interestingly, I was reviewing my copy of the IATA ticketing handbook (a PDF of the 39th ed from 2007 is readily available online with a simple google search) which has guidance for this exact situation. I actually thought of this thread, but wasn't going to bring it back up, but now that someone else has I'll add what the ticketing handbook states in
2.23.13 Inadmissible Passengers
-Delivering carrier is responsible for ticketing the inadmissible passenger to new location advised by authorities
-If passenger has a return ticket that should be used. If the return ticket isn't valid for the destination they're being sent to, any remaining coupon value on the ticket should be applied towards the new flights
-Endorsement/fare restriction requirements are waived
-If the passengers remaining ticket doesn't cover the new flight they're being put on, the delivering carrier should collect the fare difference
-If the passenger can't pay the fare difference, the delivering carrier still needs to ticket them for the outbound flight, however the cost is split among all carriers who participated in transporting the passenger to the point of inadmissibility.

The last point is important, because in that case where the passenger can't cover the fare difference, the airlines obligation is only to return them to the point dictated by authorities, not necessarily their origin. So if for example the itinerary was ORD-SEA on BB and SEA-TYO on CC. Passenger is refused in TYO and airline ordered to send them back to the states. If the passenger can't pay the fare difference, the only obligation of CC is to get them back to the states, not necessarily to ORD (and BB & CC would share the cost for the TYO-USA flight the passenger needs to be put on).
IATA rules are all well and good but are an agreement between carriers. The agreement between the carrier and the passenger is the carrier's conditions of carriage. And the conditions of carriage allow the carrier to sue the passenger for the excess fare in this instance.
Also as others have discussed there is a distinction between inadmissible person and deportee. An inadmissible person is refused entry/ordered removed before ever being allowed in, therefore they're not a deportee. On the other hand, a deportee is someone who was legally admitted to a country and then later ordered to be removed. When it is an inadmissible person, it is that person/the airlines responsibility to cover the fare of the transportation. When it is a deportee, it is the country (subject to local laws/regulations) ordering the removal who needs to provide the ticket fare.
I agree. The case under discussion in this thread was the former, however. Additionally, the carrier's liability may differ depending on whether the passenger was refused for invalid or insufficient documentation (higher liability) or something they said/did at passport control or their history (lower liability as carrier could not have known the passenger would be refused).
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Old Oct 25, 2022 | 11:51 am
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Originally Posted by Podcat
THE RULES ARE THE RULES AND YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THE RULES EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE CLEARLY UNKNOWABLE.

I say the same to Japan: go ahead and keep your stupid, unreasonable, nit-picking, pointless, unknowable gotcha rules and your raw fish.
Unknowable? It was widely known a visa was required to enter Japan for the past 2.5 years.

Originally Posted by Podcat
Ill stick to countries that welcome travelers and dont delight in tossing back well-meaning, good people like Donjo for no good reason that anyone with a lizard brain would accept for one minute.
Good riddance. I am sure your presence will be sorely missed.
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Old Oct 25, 2022 | 12:01 pm
  #146  
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Originally Posted by stifle
IATA rules are all well and good but are an agreement between carriers. The agreement between the carrier and the passenger is the carrier's conditions of carriage. And the conditions of carriage allow the carrier to sue the passenger for the excess fare in this instance.
The airline has an obligation to remove the pax from the country they cannot enter, as directed by that country's authorities. The airline must do this, regardless of whether anyone can pay them. The delivering carrier erred by permitting an inadmissible pax to board.

IATA has an agreement to split the cost of doing this among the delivering carrier(s) should it happen.

The operating carrier can, under its contract of carriage, pursue damages from the passenger for the costs it incurs. In practice, this last step almost never happens because (a) in the case of a round-trip ticket, the return coupon is normally used, and (b) I would imagine in most other cases, the pax can obviously not afford the additional cost, so it's not worth pursuing.
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Old Oct 25, 2022 | 3:25 pm
  #147  
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The issue is now moot as the visa waiver program has restarted. The thread is now "Japan sucks," vs. "Passenger sucks," and the OP has left the discussion - which is too bad because I was hoping that we might hear from the OP after a successful visit to Japan.
Time to close the thread?
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Old Oct 26, 2022 | 1:44 am
  #148  
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Originally Posted by Podcat
Um, yeah. He had a Visa remember?
Nothing in this thread has convinced me that the passenger had a visa. He had one of the main documents required to allow him to apply for a visa, but he did not have a visa.
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Old Oct 26, 2022 | 2:47 am
  #149  
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Originally Posted by Podcat
Um, yeah. He had a Visa remember?
No he had an ERFS document, which is in effect a visa invitation letter that you bring to the embassy or consulate to document the receiving/inviting organisation. These are quite common to apply for visas for many countries. I would imagine certain nationalities would even need them for entering the US. I have been issued more visa invitation letters than I can possibly remember.

The issue is that many of us EU and US passport holders have forgotten what it actually means when you are required to go through a full visa process. As we had the benefit prepandemic of very rarely having to do it. The ERFS process was not particularly badly described or cumbersome at the point where you could start entering as self organised tours.

The surprising point was that it was there for a country that we fortunate EU and US passport holders used to be able to just waltz into, and people got caught in not having done their preparations. And United got caught in not checking the documents properly.

No wonder ANA and JAL does a full document check for connecting passengers before letting them board the plane to Japan.
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Old Oct 26, 2022 | 7:17 am
  #150  
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Originally Posted by stifle
Nothing in this thread has convinced me that the passenger had a visa.
How about these words from the actual immigration clerk: “Your visa no good.” Didn’t say, “That piece of paper you presented that is not a visa no good.”
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