Dreamwalker

Hey everyone I hope everyone is doing well and getting some adventures in!

I am planning another couple week trip for my wife and I. The last couple of trips we have taken have been beach related and my wife kind of picked them. She picked beach at least, I picked Hawaii and Maldives(honeymoon). However, I am picking location for this one and I'm leaning towards Italy. I love history and not really sure my number 1 is doable. I think my top three places are Egypt, Italy, or Japan. I don't feel comfortable traveling to Egypt right now for some reasons, feels a little too adventurous for us as a location(let me know if I'm wrong). So here is my questions if I do one of the other two would Italy be the choice over Japan if going for historical locations?

I have been to Rome and Venice during college study abroad trip for a few days. So we are thinking of starting in Naples and seeing Pompei, transferring to Rome for a couple days so my wife can see it. Making our way to Florence or Venice, potentially both. Venice is so small that I'd only wanna spend a day there or two at the most. Lastly fly out of Milan. I know this is a lot in two weeks - 16 days. I just don't see us having enough to do in Pompei and I'd like to see other parts of Italy.

As travelers, we tend to go to one location such as Maui, NYC, Maldives and camp there. We don't do country tours so to speak very often. I have roughly 500k in Amex points, 225k in Chase points and about 100k in Hyatt/Hilton points each.

Let me know if this would work or if you'd recommend somewhere else? I'd really like to see some cool sights and experience some ancient history like Pompeii, Rome or Cairo/Pyramids. I didn't know if there was a better place to post this, but since I'm leaning Italy it fit.

Thanks!

annaschummi

Venice for a day or two does not make sense. At least 3 or 4. If no time, leave it for another trip.
I would do Rome, Naples and Florence in 16 days. Add Amalfi coast or islands if spare days. No need to go to Venice if not enough time and Milan has not much to do with ancient history.

13901

You can't enter Japan right now (and realistically for the foreseeable future I think) so I guess that's off the cards too. I echo annaschummi's comment on Venice and I'd actually apply it to other places besides Venice. It's a common idea to say "I've come this far, I want to see as much as possible" but what you end up doing is just a whirlwind tour, hit the "main drags" and feel like you've been short-changed. Take Venice, for instance. All the times I've been there Piazza san Marco and the neighbouring 3 calle were rammed with tourists. The Ghetto, Giudecca, Dorsoduro and Cannaregio were empty but for us and the locals. My advice is to take it slower, spend maybe a bit more time in a place. My best memories of Venice aren't of Piazza San Marco, of the Canal Grande or whatever but of small cicchetterie in the University area, of taking the vaporetto to Giudecca, of seeing glimpses of the Jewish heritage in the Ghetto or finding Marco Polo's old office.

A couple of years ago we did a two-week trip to Italy, having found no availability elsewhere. It was at the tail end of summer, September, so weather-wise it was mostly OK. Flew into VCE, did 5 days in Venice (4 nights and one was arrival day), then we picked up a car at Tessera (VCE airport), drove down to Ferrara (we chose it over Bologna and Modena because we'd already been to either) spent one night, then camped for the rest of the time in Val d'Orcia, Tuscany, and drove around/trekked from there. Did a night in Firenze just because we couldn't be bothered to drive back and there'd been a massive accident on the A1 with queues stretching back to Venus. I'd definitely recommend such a trip; to my mind going to Tuscany and not seeing the countryside is like showering with an anorak on, unless it's winter.

Another option is obviously what annaschummi is suggesting and that could work year-round. Romans and Neapolitans like to moan about 'cold' but in fairness it's never really cold there. If it snows a little bit in Rome they close schools.

JMN57

My 2 cents. My mother is Japanese and I have a house in Italy so I guess I have a foot in both options. Honestly, unless you have a lot of context/knowledge, Italian history is a lot more accessible to most Westerners than Japanese history. Not saying that Japan isn't worth the time/effort but since it may be difficult to access now, Italy is a great option and can hardly disappoint.

Relative to visiting/touring Italy, I wouldn't count travel days as days in a city/town/area. I second the idea of doing less places and more time at them - there's a phrase in Italian "La dolce far niente" which means "the sweetness of doing nothing" While I understand the urge to hit the major sites, I would heartedly recommend finding one spot, slowing down and enjoying life.

Personally, we'd visited Italy 40 times or so before we bought a house. There was a clear progression from early visits which were more agenda driven to later trips which were more relaxing experiences. That led to us buying & renovating a home there. Hitting major sites is important but it also makes sense to try and experience more of Italian life.

At the end of the day, it's your trip so please ignore these comments if they push you towards things you'd rather not do. Have FUN!

Dreamwalker

Interesting that you find Venice needs more time. I went to Greece for study abroad about 10 years ago and we popped over to Italy for 3 days roughly. 2 in Rome and 1 in Venice. We walked the whole city it felt like in a day and the canals. I remember us all not really carrying for it and so it felt like an easy place to skip.

What do you find so exciting about Venice? It smelled awful when we were there and I didn't really see much that excited me. I am coming from a place of ignorance from my own experience.

​​​​​​Milan is just something different. The whole trip doesn't need to be ancient history focused.

I understand and appreciate the slow down and take your time. We are not wealthy nor does my wife have tons of time she can take all at once. She gets plenty of vacation but it has to be spread out so it's hard to plan international trips. We do one a year and we might be having kids soon..I think that will eliminate a lot of travel for us..I wish we had the points or income to travel to Italy 40 times or to buy a house there. However we don't we use the welcome offers to support one trip a year. We suspect that this might be the last till our kid or kids is 10. Granted maybe kids aren't in our future but they could be as we are kinda trying. Let God handle it type philosophy.

What do you mean by inaccessible for Japan history ?

I appreciate the advice and will definitely consider it..I could actually skip Rome as I've seen the things there I wanted to see except the Sistine Chapel. It was closed when I was there. However I hate to take that experience from my wife.

How do you people travel so much? 40 times to one countries that's crazy. I've been to NYC 4 times and tons to Chicago and i don't like going back. Haha. I like new places.

We travel a decent amount but lots of weekend trips. Wish I understood how people travel so much. I have had quite a few points in my life but everyday spend isn't enough to support trips without hitting welcome bonuses and those can be large spends. Are you guys spending like 6 figures on your cards ??

13901

Everyone's entitled to his or her own opinion but I struggle to think that you might want to travel to Italy for history's sake and not want to take a second look at Venice.

There are two main reasons I'd say. One is the impressive layering of the city. It's the Hong Kong of medieval times - actually it's more than that since it was the crossroad of so many cultures. Just look at this random building in Dorsoduro I think. You have Moorish elements, the classic Roman/European "arco a tutto sesto", some fake Greek columns...


Then again, you have the Ghetto - and I needn't remind anyone of the importance of the first place where Jews were segregated in modern history. Even if you go to St Mark's basilica you see all sorts of layering. You have Lysippo's horses, nicked in 1204 from Costantinople (and how often does it happen to see a 2500-year-old statue?!) and within spitting distance the four Tetrarchs of late Roman times... I mean, everywhere you look you have things to marvel at. The same could be said of Naples for instance. One of the great pleasures of my stays there have been to walk the city with locals who can tell you all sorts of local lore, legends, stories and customs. You miss so much otherwise.

Then the second thing that had it going for me is actually how the city works and lives. People still do live here, and live and work on the water. Water taxis, mail boats, groceries come by boat, local chavs have neon lights on their boats rather than on their moped or pimped-up cars... Ain't that interesting to watch?

Dreamwalker

It is all something to think about for sure. The setting for when I went in college was a little different. I had two huge must sees as a young person. Roman Colosseum and the Pyramids. I know in our group of 5 that went to Venice that I was the most excited to see Rome. Everyone else was like we are going to Venice, but we left not feeling like it was as special as we thought it would be. Could be young college students who had spent weeks in Athens Greece and were burnt out on historical sites. I was always excited to see a new place, I've always loved ancient history. I just remember us leaving it and talking about it wasn't as amazing as we expected. I do remember that the smells really bothered us on a hot July day. That could be part of it, I have some pretty cool pictures from there though.

Anywho, it is something to think about. I am often one telling my friends to slow down, so I truly understand the approach the three of you are recommending. I think my major concern is this could be our last big trip for a while. I'd hate to have been to Italy and missed something - ie the tourist stuff and sights when I may never get to go back. I understand the immersing yourself in the culture aspect. I don't know if we have the luxury of that this time. I don't see us renting a car, we aren't really rent a car type people, though that might have changed with covid. Precovid I was driving almost 75,000 miles a year, so renting a car on vacation was never something I would do. I also little concerned we would be very good at driving in Italy. I think they are pretty aggressive and we are from rural America were its slow as can be :P While I can drive in cities, I tend not too. Don't enjoy it much, sets off my road rage when stuck in traffic for an hour. I'm used to just going Though my road rage is mostly me yelling at the radio to stop playing commercials while we wait.

I don't remember seeing any cars when we were there tbh. Bikes and Canals mostly. We walked the city for like 12 hours and I don't remember a single car or have a photo of a single one.

Anywho it is something to highly consider. How many times have you been to Italy 13901??

Thanks for all the insights! Maybe I'll have to pick a city like London or something we can explore instead of a country. Not sure..

annaschummi

My 5 cents.
I've been to Venice 4 days this spring when tourist from abroad have not been admitted yet. Considering it's not my first time to Venice, so all major places to see have already been visited in the past.
1st day: arrival al noon. Sant Marco Square, San Marco church, no Palazzo Ducale since I have already been there, Ponte dei Sospiri, Bacino Orseolo, take vaporetto to Isola San Giorgio Maggiore, visit San Giorgio church, vaporetto to Giudecca, ice cream at Nico, wandering around Dorsoduro, punta della Dogana.
2nd day: early morning Rialto bridge and Rialto markets (fish market is awesome), vaporetto to Murano, visit of a glass factory, vaporetto to Burano, visit merletto museum, vaporetto to Torcello (occupies the whole day)
3rd day: vaporetto along Gran Canale and visiting all the palaces. Visit of La Fenice Opera house, in the afternnon Canareggio and Ghetto
4th day: Basilica dei Frari, San Polo/Santa Croce

And consider that main tourst spots have already been visited in the past. Obviously if one wanders along Gran Canale and visits San Marco only, it is considered that one visited Venice. Like you've been to San Francisco and seen Golden Gate only.
Venice did not smell at all in May, even though it was 30C all 4 days we've been there.

Milan is something good for shopping and aperitivi. Apart from Duomo and Ultima Cena I don't see it as a great city to visit.
I am not commenting 2 days in Rome, but at least 4 days are necessary for a first approach. I am coming back to Rome each year for 4 days vacations and there are still places that I have never seen.
Well, the journey is yours, we are here to give a piece of advice of HOW TO ENJOY Italy, if you wish just to flag that you've been to a certain city that it's fine as well.

13901

Hey, it's normal. If I cast my mind back at most of my high school and uni trips... well, I think I can remember about a third of them. The rest is, well, let's skip!

Fact is, you're bound to miss stuff. I've lived in London for 10 years and I'm still finding things. Imagine in Rome, or Venice, or Naples where they had 1,000s of years to reinvent, reappropriate and change things!

The 'aggressiveness' of Italians at the wheel is somehow overstated. Sure, driving through Turin's north side is one of the most unnerving things I've done behind the wheel and I've driven on dirt roads in the Atacama while pushing another car, but by far and large people might honk horns but will definitely not go beyond that. Then there's the white van phenomenon, scourge of Milan's ring roads, but I've been flashed a gun by a lovely gentleman in Houston for comparison's sake. Having said that, I'd advise against renting a car if "all" you will do is cities and perhaps places like Amalfi. I'd consider one only if you're going around the Tuscan countryside but in that case the only thing to worry about is to fit in tiny roads (get a tiny car!) and avoiding cyclists.

Venice is effectively a large car-free zone. You just can't drive anywhere. Which makes it beeeeautiful in my mind.

Quite a few, I'm part Italian Lived there for 15 years through school and part of uni.

No worries. I'm sure you'll have a blast wherever you go.

Dreamwalker

Haha. Not commenting on the Rome 2 days. It was the only 3 day weekend we had while abroad. So it was either that or another Greek isle. We had already visited Mykos and were going to Santorini at the end of the trip. We spent most of one day at the Vatican and another hitting major tourist attraction. We did miss the Sistine Chapel as it was closed while we were there.

Thanks for the feedback. I can understand your points of view. Need to do something thinking on it. This could be our last international trip for almost a decade. We don't really enjoy the idea of traveling with kids. I'm trying to ensure we go out with a bang.

Any recommendations from you 3 about going out with a bang on where to go?? I'm open to almost anything for consideration.

annaschummi

Look, our first trip to Hawaii was "let's do as much as possible, because who knows if we ever come back, it's a 20 hours flight". Well, we came back 2 other times and when pandemics ends, we'd come back again. So, never say never.
I would do one part of Italy, but well done. For example Tuscany (no fiorentina well-done though). Apart from visiting Florence, Siena, Lucca, there is all the topic of wines and good food. Just relaxing aroung Chianti, Val d'Orcia, drinking great red wines and eating pecorino di Pienza. There is sea coast as well.
If you do not wish to rent a car and it might be a price issue this year. I would do Rome, Naples and Florence. Easily moving around by train. Amalfi coast can be done with local buses as well. Car is more handy, but parking is a huge problem, especially in high season. Somebody rents a scooter, but local folks are very dangerous when driving.

Dreamwalker

Hawaii is amazing. I love Hawaii but being American it doesn't feel as exotic to me as other places. I was curious does it feel different to you? That feels like how we felt about the Maldives. It was like 22 hours for us. Granted there isn't a lot to do on a resort island but be there.

​​​​​​I have always wondered how people see vacationing in America if it's far away. Our history is so new compared to the rest of the world.

annaschummi

I have spent my last 6 annual leaves traveling around USA. I just love being on the road, renting those SUVs that you consider small cars, driving for hours on highways without seeing anything, spending some hours in a grocery store looking at all enormous packages that you have, gallons of milk and things like that. It's just a different way of traveling. This year we were supposed to travel around national parks of Arizona and New Mexico, but will enjoy Marche and Abruzzo.
I understand you when you say you want to see as much as possible. It happened during our first trip, landing in SFO, then doing Sequoia NP, Death valley, Vegas, Bryce, Page, Grand Canyon. I would have done even more, but a friend of mine stopped me from passing more time in a car than sightseeing. After that, we did 5 other trips, 3 times Hawaii and we will come over again.
Why Hawaii with a 20 hours flight? We have great sea in Sardegna and Puglia, perhaps even better than Hawaii, but the concentration of bodies on a beach in August in Italy is unacceptable. By the way, we never stopped at Waikiki, neither booked a fancy resort. So I actually don't know if Hawaii can be crowded, I just avoided possibly crowded places. But in the August, in a hidden beach on Oahu North shore, there were thus us and turtles in the sea. Nobody else.

Hornetcoach

I don’t see anything wrong with your original plan, Naples, Rome and Florence. You have said that you don’t want to rent a car and it doesn’t sound like Venice is a must-see, since you have already been there once. I’m with you on that. I went there once for one day, took the train from Padua. Glad I went, don’t particularly want to back though a week there without tourists would be great. You can travel locally from all those places if you wish and two weeks is a good amount of time to split between three places (four if you include Milan). I will suggest one other place for you to think about, Malta. Lots of history including some very ancient, very easy to get around by bus, good beaches, good food. It’s a good place for a very laid back vacation for someone from the USA. You would have to fly there from some other large city so you could plan something like go to Paris, London or Rome for a couple days, fly to Malta, return via a different city. Wherever you go, just don’t try to cram too much in, go somewhere and allow enough time to enjoy where you went, rather than rushing from place to place just to say you have been.

13901

Again, I think annaschummi's suggestion is as good as it gets in terms of a high level plan.

Frankly, if this is your last trip before you have kids and call it a day on travelling... I'd make a big deal of it. I know Americans get a pitiful amount of leave per year (one of the reasons I flatly rejected a relocation there on a couple of occasions...) but if you have the chance and can afford it make it last longer. Take 3 weeks. And think of the place you'd really like to go to. If you're not 100% behind the idea of going to Italy, then go someplace else.

I'm sorry I can't be of real help, it's really a personal choice. Me, personally, I love high altitude deserts and remote places in general so 2019 was an amazing year as I've been able to go to the Atacama desert (and Easter Island) with the Mrs and Kyrgyzstan-Xinjiang-Kazakhstan by myself. Those were all places I long wanted to visit but that's just me. Others want to go to Vegas or whatever. It's really down to your personal choice. My only recommendation is that if it's going to be the one for 10 years... make it one to remember.