Perche

The OP is traveling to and from Italy. You could just as well say that this should be moved to the Forum of their USA departure point, because it's the only place there could be a problem. But frankly, I think it's kind of paranoid to think that the ex-husband is going to call immigration out of vindictiveness and report a fake kidnapping if the divorce settlement gives her custody.

Every now and then one reads about planes being delayed because someone called in a threat, often for ridiculous purposes. Not too long ago someone was arrested for calling in an anonymous threat in order to delay a flight because they were running late, and were afraid they would miss it. Reporting fake kidnappings is similar. The OP should know what her custody arrangement is.

I would classify this in with all of the other undue paranoia about traveling to Italy. No one in Italy or France is going to take her children away from her based on their last names, or their differences in their skin color.

And my other point is that USA notarization is useless. It works both ways. A divorced USA ex-pat living in Italy or France cannot go to a French notary and get a letter authorizing him to come to the USA and empty his retirement account, taking away what belongs to his wife who remained in the USA. If you show up at a branch of Fidelity with a notarized French or Italian document with the intention of doing that Fidelity will not give you any money because you have an unknown, stamped document in French or Italian. It's the same with thinking that a notarized letter from your bank in the USA gives you authority to transport foreign children around Europe.

Legal international documents have to go through the Consul, and there are some documents they will not do. I doubt they would do a notarization to travel with children.

International marriages, marriages between people of different color, children not having the same last name as their mother, is so common that if they tried to stop all such travelers, the airports would be paralyzed.

The OP should know her custody rights pertaining to her divorce, and obey them; aside from that, she shouldn't worry or bother with invalid notary documents, or pay thousands of dollars to an attorney specializing in international law just to take a regular trip to Italy with her kids, just like millions of other divorced, mixed marriage, and people with adopted children do.

Just follow the divorce decree, and enjoy.

iapetus

I get what you're saying here, but I have to disagree. I don't think that this has anything to do with Italy or preconceptions about it (recall that this thread wasn't started in this forum) and everything to do with being a parent. While I think that most people in Western society these days don't have a problem with multi-racial families, you can't assume that that applies to everyone if you're subject to that sort of prejudice, particularly when that person might be an immigration officer with the power to cause one a lot of angst. That goes doubly when one's child is involved. And keep in mind that I agree that one is just as likely, if not more so, to face this sort of prejudice upon re-entering the US.

I would imagine that everything should run smoothly, but I wouldn't fault anyone from wanting to be prepared for such contingencies no matter the country.

Perche

I agree with that, but it think it rises to paranoia levels when it is recommended that you hire an attorney and bring notarized letters just to take a trip to Italy with your children because your ex-husband might call the airport and report a kidnapping. That is a heck of a lot of fear. The OP's question wasn't at all paranoid, but some of the recommendations and advice about how to travel with children was a little overblown, and creates unnecessary angst.

GUWonder

My family circle is rather diverse ethnically and otherwise, and the children and even siblings range from looking very much alike ethnically to looking very different than one or both of their parents. And the name arrangements in the US passports and othewise are quite literally very diverse. My family members almost never have such letters and we have not used such letters to enter France at any point over the past 25 years at least. Border control at CDG often seem to see a US passport and just about stop caring to do anything more than minimally required of them.

I've never seen DL or AF in the US or elsewhere make an issue of this for any of my family and friends going to the Schengen zone -- and we are talking about a huge number of trips entering the Schengen zone.

If getting a letter -- notarized or otherwise -- from the other parents makes a person feel more comfortable, go ahead and do it. If not, for a US-CDG-Italy trip and back, I'd personally have no problem with skipping over such a letter when traveling with my younger relatives.

PWMTrav

This thread has every option, from doing nothing to the most conservative approach. Call it a day. Which to apply is up to OP, her specific situation and level of concern.

iapetus

OK. I see your point. And I agree.


I did ask mrs. iapetus about what we did last year. On my recommendation, she took copies of their birth certificates (which I know wouldn't help taz99 here). She never needed them.

Perche

There may be others with first hand experience or direct knowledge that can be of help and assurance to the OP.

PWMTrav

Maybe, but the better place then would be the Travel with Children forum. You might consider moving this thread there.

If OP is still following along, there are other similar topics already there, with roughly the same cross-section of opinions. At some point it's about doing what makes you feel comfortable, though.

GUWonder

I'm posting from first hand experience as well. My family has a long history of doing a lot of international travel.

PWMTrav

And what you posted makes sense (and you also contribute quite a bit to the Travel with Children form, IIRC), but I don't think that it's a technical question at its core. If we pare things back to the letter, a US citizen needs a passport to enter Europe. That much is clear. But it's hard to go further without knowing OPs specific situation, and I can't imagine she'd want to fully detail that in an internet forum.

Obviously, my opinion is already upthread, but there are things you can do to make things easier if you have concerns. This discussion has gone toward whether OP should have concerns, which is different from what to do if OP has concerns. That's something else. Unless I missed the original question and I'm the one going off topic, then I'll shut up.

taz99

My teachers in school always said I was an instigator. Look at all the opinions that have fired up over my initial question.

Seriously, I really appreciate the input and the opinions. We decided to ask for the letters, and luckily - and surprisingly - neither of our ex's gave us any grief over our request. It seems that they're both in good moods this week!

I have to laugh about all the concern about my nine-year-old - he's probably going to be so whiny during our vacation that by the end of it we'd happily hand him over to the authorities. Just kidding. Sorta.

iapetus

My six-year-old is going to be griping about the heat in Italy next month. Granitas usually calm him down.

PWMTrav

Look at it this way - best case, those letters never come out again and just provide peace of mind. But without knowing the level of ....... that your ex-spouses are, it also serves a broader purpose of documenting the travel, disclosure, etc. I hope you don't end up in family court much, but if you do, it's cheap insurance against the whole "X took my kid half way around the planet for 2 months and never told me they were going" routine. If you can go the extra step and get it notarized, I'd still do that. I see this as some reasonable additional work to allay your concerns. Again, I don't want to pretend to give you legal advice, so let me just say that if there's anything specific or further required in your previous agreements/decrees/orders (divorce/custody/support/etc), be sure to follow that. I'm sure you know that, but I've seen the other side of this when the exes decide not to get along.

Enjoy the trip, definitely post in the forum when you start planning activities.

GUWonder

Unless doing a convoluted routing or going via Canada, the OP should forget the notary. A signed letter is generally way more than sufficient for this kind of rather straightforward trip. And if you think these letters become a magic solution just because of a notary on the letter, then I've got some bad news about that too.

CDG gets lots of American kids traveling without their parents and/or with the family name of the child being different than the accompanying adult. It's generally not a problem.

Perche

Just don't forget to take those letters to your local bank to get notarized so that it forces those French and Italian authorities to obey what it says!

Seriously, I understand your concern, but the airports on routes going to Italy will be packed with millions of children going to Italy, of all different colors and shades of inheritance, of different types of genetic make-up, blended families, divorces, and children of people who were never married. European authorities are not on the lookout to see if a child's hair is a little curlier than her mom's, raising suspicion that the person she is traveling is not the child of her straight hair and lighter skinned mother.

Just follow the terms of the divorce. No one is going to give you "second looks" traveling through passport control in France on arrival, or on departure from Italy. This is a normal, everyday, routine trip for millioms of parents and children of blended families. No, you don't need to hire an international law attorney for a routine trip to Italy. Just obey the terms of the divorce, and don't let people scare you.

The fastest way for you to get a heightened security check is to show up at the airport and present notarized letters at check-in, proving that you can travel with your children. The other 99.9% of parents who just show up at the ticket counter with their blended, inter-racial, mixed-ethnic families who don't present a notarized lettter at check-in will be on the plane, whereas they will probably call a supervisor, and start problems. Authorities on the USA side just want to make sure you all have passports, coming and going.

Your current family is a regular family, especially by European standards, so they won't sweat it, and neither should you.