Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Information Desk
Reload this Page >

Transfer Restrictions Question

Transfer Restrictions Question

Old Aug 12, 17, 11:22 pm
  #1  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: NYC
Programs: UA
Posts: 36
Transfer Restrictions Question

Hi All,

What's the difference between a fare break surface sector and an embedded surface sector? From what I found on Google, it allows you to create an itinerary with gaps (e.g., it allows you to combine JFK-LHR and CDG-MXP). I copied this from the fare rules on ITA:

FARE BREAK SURFACE SECTORS NOT PERMITTED AND EMBEDDED
SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT

Thanks
maxiet is offline  
Old Aug 14, 17, 7:47 pm
  #2  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Massachusetts, USA; AA Plat (2.90MM), DL GM and Flying Colonel (1.04MM); Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 22,660
A surface sector, as you probably know, is a part of your trip that is on land or water rather than in the air. As I understand it, the other terms mean:

An embedded surface sector is between two points in the same direction. For example, say you want to go from Chicago to Paris, with a change in New York. Your Chicago flight is ORD-LGA. Your Paris flight is JFK-CDG. LGA-JFK is an embedded surface sector. That is permitted under this fare rule.

A fare break surface sector is a surface sector at one end of your air travel or the other. (Those are fare break points, also called fare construction points.) Say you wanted to continue from CDG to Nice via the TGV, ending your journey there. That would not be permitted under this fare rule. It basically means "no surface travel before your first flight or after your last one," applied separately to each part of your total journey (e.g., outbound and return).
JDiver and maxiet like this.
Efrem is online now  
Old Aug 16, 17, 8:30 am
  #3  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 89,722
Originally Posted by Efrem View Post
A surface sector, as you probably know, is a part of your trip that is on land or water rather than in the air. As I understand it, the other terms mean:

An embedded surface sector is between two points in the same direction. For example, say you want to go from Chicago to Paris, with a change in New York. Your Chicago flight is ORD-LGA. Your Paris flight is JFK-CDG. LGA-JFK is an embedded surface sector. That is permitted under this fare rule.

A fare break surface sector is a surface sector at one end of your air travel or the other. (Those are fare break points, also called fare construction points.) Say you wanted to continue from CDG to Nice via the TGV, ending your journey there. That would not be permitted under this fare rule. It basically means "no surface travel before your first flight or after your last one," applied separately to each part of your total journey (e.g., outbound and return).
HUH? You get off the flight at CDG and purchase a train ticket for the TGV. How does the airline even know?
MSPeconomist is offline  
Old Oct 27, 17, 5:57 pm
  #4  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: NYC
Programs: UA
Posts: 36
Thank you, Efrem. Sorry for the delayed response, but this was a great explanation. I also have the same question as MSPeconomist: How would an airline know if you take a train before or after your flights?
maxiet is offline  
Old Oct 27, 17, 8:11 pm
  #5  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bye Delta
Programs: AA EXP, HH Diamond, IHG Plat, Hyatt Plat, SPG Gold, MR Gold, Nat'l Exec Elite, Avis Presidents Club
Posts: 15,323
For the return. If you get off the plane in CDG and take the TGV south and want to start your return air trip from NCE.
javabytes is offline  
Old Oct 28, 17, 7:49 am
  #6  
Moderator: American AAdvantage, TAP, Mexico, Technical Support and Feedback, and The Suggestion Box
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,670
Depending on travel plans, another option is the open jaw fare, a combination of half the round trip fare for each direction in which the "open jaw" sector is shorter than either base leg. E.g. JFK-CDG + ZRH-JFK.
JDiver is offline  
Old Oct 28, 17, 9:11 am
  #7  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Massachusetts, USA; AA Plat (2.90MM), DL GM and Flying Colonel (1.04MM); Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 22,660
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
HUH? You get off the flight at CDG and purchase a train ticket for the TGV. How does the airline even know?
Originally Posted by maxiet View Post
Thank you, Efrem. Sorry for the delayed response, but this was a great explanation. I also have the same question as MSPeconomist: How would an airline know if you take a train before or after your flights?
The airline doesn't know or care if you buy a train ticket in France. The airline does care if you want buy a round trip from, say, Nice, but take the train (or make your own other arrangements, rent a car, whatever) from CDG to NCE. They will not let you do that. You will have to buy an open-jaw ticket, into CDG and out of NCE, probably at a higher fare. If you book CDG-NCE as part of your round trip but don't board that flight, the rest of your itinerary (your return from NCE to the States) will be canceled.
Efrem is online now  
Old Oct 28, 17, 11:29 pm
  #8  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: NYC
Programs: UA
Posts: 36
Originally Posted by Efrem View Post
The airline doesn't know or care if you buy a train ticket in France. The airline does care if you want buy a round trip from, say, Nice, but take the train (or make your own other arrangements, rent a car, whatever) from CDG to NCE. They will not let you do that. You will have to buy an open-jaw ticket, into CDG and out of NCE, probably at a higher fare. If you book CDG-NCE as part of your round trip but don't board that flight, the rest of your itinerary (your return from NCE to the States) will be canceled.
Thanks for another clear explanation ^. Say you fly JFK-CDG, take trains to and from CDG-NCE, and fly CDG-JFK. Even if "fare break surface sectors" are permitted, how would you go about adding train tickets on the same ticket? Is there any benefit to that than buying JFK-CDG RT and buying train tickets separately? IROPS protection?
maxiet is offline  
Old Oct 29, 17, 9:10 am
  #9  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Massachusetts, USA; AA Plat (2.90MM), DL GM and Flying Colonel (1.04MM); Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 22,660
Originally Posted by maxiet View Post
Thanks for another clear explanation ^. Say you fly JFK-CDG, take trains to and from CDG-NCE, and fly CDG-JFK. Even if "fare break surface sectors" are permitted, how would you go about adding train tickets on the same ticket? Is there any benefit to that than buying JFK-CDG RT and buying train tickets separately? IROPS protection?
I don't know if this is even possible, but a good travel agent can find out (if he/she doesn't already know) and tell you. I'd probably just book these as separate trips, buying a train ticket that had some protection if you miss the train because your flight arrives late.

I can't imagine a fare rule that would limit your ability to take trains while at a destination you reached by air. If there were such rules, the Heathrow Express and the western end of the Piccadilly Line wouldn't be nearly as busy as they are.
Efrem is online now  
Old Oct 29, 17, 11:45 am
  #10  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: NYC
Programs: UA
Posts: 36
Originally Posted by Efrem View Post
I don't know if this is even possible, but a good travel agent can find out (if he/she doesn't already know) and tell you. I'd probably just book these as separate trips, buying a train ticket that had some protection if you miss the train because your flight arrives late.

I can't imagine a fare rule that would limit your ability to take trains while at a destination you reached by air. If there were such rules, the Heathrow Express and the western end of the Piccadilly Line wouldn't be nearly as busy as they are.
Makes sense--just seems like a superfluous fare rule/stipulation for 99% of itineraries. Thanks.
maxiet is offline  
Old Nov 2, 17, 1:13 pm
  #11  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Santa Cruz, CA USA
Programs: UA, HH, SPG
Posts: 7,286
Originally Posted by Efrem View Post
A surface sector, as you probably know, is a part of your trip that is on land or water rather than in the air. As I understand it, the other terms mean:

An embedded surface sector is between two points in the same direction. For example, say you want to go from Chicago to Paris, with a change in New York. Your Chicago flight is ORD-LGA. Your Paris flight is JFK-CDG. LGA-JFK is an embedded surface sector. That is permitted under this fare rule.

A fare break surface sector is a surface sector at one end of your air travel or the other. (Those are fare break points, also called fare construction points.) Say you wanted to continue from CDG to Nice via the TGV, ending your journey there. That would not be permitted under this fare rule. It basically means "no surface travel before your first flight or after your last one," applied separately to each part of your total journey (e.g., outbound and return).
]]

I agree with your explanation of embedded surface section but I am not sure I agree with the explanation of fare break surface sector.

I have thought of the latter as occurring in certain open jaw tickets - e.g., LGA-ORD//MCI-LGA where ORD-MCI would be the embedded fare break surface structure when a different 1-way fare basis was used for each of the two flight segments. I have run into this rule quite a bit recently ever since the legacy carriers have introduced their Basic Economy Fares. What I have found is that when you have an open jaw itinerary with a Basic Economy Fare for one segment and a "Regular" Economy fare for the other segment, the airlines will not allow you to issue both segments on the same ticket. Hence the rule "Fare Break Surface Sector Not Allowed".
JerryFF is offline  
Old Nov 3, 17, 11:55 am
  #12  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: NYC
Programs: UA
Posts: 36
How is LGA-ORD//MCI-LGA different from an open jaw? So, wouldn't it be restricted by open jaw fare rules?

Last edited by maxiet; Nov 3, 17 at 12:00 pm
maxiet is offline  
Old Dec 8, 17, 9:02 pm
  #13  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: USA
Programs: AA Exec Plat, Hilton Gold, Marriott/SPG Gold
Posts: 192
Deleting duplicate post. Posted here if anyone is interested:
Removing the segment between stopover point and final destination

Last edited by nort; Dec 10, 17 at 7:12 pm Reason: Duplicate post
nort is offline  
Old Jan 5, 18, 6:30 pm
  #14  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Santa Cruz, CA USA
Programs: UA, HH, SPG
Posts: 7,286
Originally Posted by maxiet View Post
How is LGA-ORD//MCI-LGA different from an open jaw? So, wouldn't it be restricted by open jaw fare rules?
Yes, that is an open jaw. There is one fare for LGA-ORD and another fare for MCI-LGA. If both segments are on the same ticket, it is an open jaw. An embedded surface sector would be if you were flying LGA-ORD//MCI-DEN and trying to use a single fare from LGA to DEN.
JerryFF is offline  
Old Jan 8, 18, 9:13 am
  #15  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 4
Alternatives

Have you thought about taking f
Different mode of transportation?
Ferris Asante is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search Engine: