So you want to go to India ??
Aug 18, 2002, 2:57 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: HKG
Programs: CX DM, SQ, BA, TG, Sheba, VN, MPO since 1980
Posts: 1,058
So you want to go to India ??
Delhi – armpit of India
We have just flown to Delhi on CX. The flight leaves at 2210 and gets into Delhi at 0140 (except we had to do a go-around in the rainstorm) The airport is dilapidated. The departing CX flight back to HKG leaves at 03.10 hrs so that means really you need to add 1 ½ days extra hotel cost to your journey by flying CX. The Delhi airport authority have just one man on the gate entrance to the airport checking passport and ticket so you are in a long queue just to get into the flea pit airport. You must X ray your bags and get a sticker affixed then find CX has just two counters for check-in – one for Business and one for Economy. The CX ground hostesses are less than helpful (we are standing there with CX Diamond name tags, Priority baggage labels all over our luggage and she asks if we are flying CX) and also fails to tell you that you need a tag on all your hand luggage that the Airside security will stamp after examination – without the sticker you have to go out again and find one which is annoying after sitting in the lounge for 3 hours. Oh yes before immigration you must complete a departure form which clearly states “ To be completed by Indians only”. They do not have one seemingly for foreigners so you use the 'Indians Only' one. The Delhi airport duty free will not accept its own country’s currency – Rupees, just foreign currency – everything is marked in US dollars.
The departure Business class lounge is a shared lounge named ITC Sheraton used by Air India, Air France, Lufthansa, CX et alia – they have annoying seemingly non-stop flight announcements and the lounge gets quite crowded. There is no shower and the ‘food’ looks dodgy.
After completing our business (the only reason I had to go to India) my wife suggested we visit Agra and the Taj Mahal. Well the journey by road is just 120 miles but takes 4 ½ hours. The Indian drivers are forever hooting their horns and are impatient, rude and aggressive, and quite often on the wrong side of the highway coming at you. The road is punctuated with small towns where you see filth, open sewers, people urinating and defecating by the roadside; on the road journey we saw and sometimes just missed hitting, camels, donkeys, dogs, black bears, goats, monkeys, buffaloes, rats and of course cattle. The 'sacred' cattle wander freely in the roads and lie in the streets ; they also eat all the garbage. In most of the towns we passed at least one area 20 yards x 20 yards of filth and litter spread over the pavements and roads which the cattle were either eating or wallowing in. The local councils obviously do not have a garbage collection service from the non-affluent areas and the residents seem to be happy to live in filth, excrement, sewerage and general disheveled areas without bothering to clean it up themselves. On the way (105 kms from Delhi) you can stop at the Rajastan motel – they have a tourist shop and a ‘coffee shop’. They switch on the shop lights when tourists arrive – prices ? well as an example for a simple local wooden chess set made from sandal wood they want Rupees 24,000 (US 511) – do you think they ever sell any ?
Agra has a shanty town surrounding the Taj Mahal called the Taj Ganj (which presumably means Dump in English). In the guidebook Lonely Planet it states that the entry charge into the Taj Mahal is Rupees 105 (US 2) - when you get there they try at the entry kiosk to charge you the new rate of Rupees 750 per head. The charge for Indians to enter the Taj Mahal is R20 (US 40 cents) so I guess the Government of India finds it acceptable to rip off tourists, just like the numerous pimps in the streets, and expect them to return. Nearby the Taj on the same road and opposite the leper hospital is the Amarvillas Oberoi hotel resort – when you enter here and find it empty you soon realize why – they politely tell you before you can sit down that US 25 (+ 8% tax) cover charge will be added to your bill per head and that the menu has been priced accordingly (ie each item will be at least US 25). Then we have the Red Fort in Agra, the entrance fee is R350 for tourists (US 7) and R 15 (US 30 cents) for Indians.
The next day we decided to go around New Delhi – the India Gate and the Parliament were quite impressive as was the Gandhi museum. We also went to the Red Fort (entrance fee US 5 for tourists and free for Indians) Nearby the Red Fort was a Native Handicrafts center set up seemingly to rip off any paleface walking through the doors. Again the lights are switched on when you enter and you are quoted ridiculous prices for junk. As an example they wanted R 35,000 for a local wooden chess set and R 15,000 for a smaller one – as we left the guy rushed out and said , OK Rupees 10,000 or what will you offer me ? I suggested he sell T-shirts for US 60 each printed with “Call me Ban Choot, I am a rich sucker tourist. Please sell me your expensive junk”
We were staying at the Grand Intercontinental where we were lucky only to have power outages every 30 minutes or so, and the next day decided to walk out of the hotel to the nearby Connaught Place. This is a large inner and outer ring of shops. The pavements once dug up are seemingly never repaired in Delhi. Zillions of touts pester you non stop so after being polite twenty times to try and stop them walking next to you with incessant banter , tugging at your clothes and arms and aggravation, it reaches the stage where even the wife has decided to belt the next one in the head.
I am afraid that Mahatma Gandhi must now be turning in his final resting place to see what has happened to his beloved India.
We have just flown to Delhi on CX. The flight leaves at 2210 and gets into Delhi at 0140 (except we had to do a go-around in the rainstorm) The airport is dilapidated. The departing CX flight back to HKG leaves at 03.10 hrs so that means really you need to add 1 ½ days extra hotel cost to your journey by flying CX. The Delhi airport authority have just one man on the gate entrance to the airport checking passport and ticket so you are in a long queue just to get into the flea pit airport. You must X ray your bags and get a sticker affixed then find CX has just two counters for check-in – one for Business and one for Economy. The CX ground hostesses are less than helpful (we are standing there with CX Diamond name tags, Priority baggage labels all over our luggage and she asks if we are flying CX) and also fails to tell you that you need a tag on all your hand luggage that the Airside security will stamp after examination – without the sticker you have to go out again and find one which is annoying after sitting in the lounge for 3 hours. Oh yes before immigration you must complete a departure form which clearly states “ To be completed by Indians only”. They do not have one seemingly for foreigners so you use the 'Indians Only' one. The Delhi airport duty free will not accept its own country’s currency – Rupees, just foreign currency – everything is marked in US dollars.
The departure Business class lounge is a shared lounge named ITC Sheraton used by Air India, Air France, Lufthansa, CX et alia – they have annoying seemingly non-stop flight announcements and the lounge gets quite crowded. There is no shower and the ‘food’ looks dodgy.
After completing our business (the only reason I had to go to India) my wife suggested we visit Agra and the Taj Mahal. Well the journey by road is just 120 miles but takes 4 ½ hours. The Indian drivers are forever hooting their horns and are impatient, rude and aggressive, and quite often on the wrong side of the highway coming at you. The road is punctuated with small towns where you see filth, open sewers, people urinating and defecating by the roadside; on the road journey we saw and sometimes just missed hitting, camels, donkeys, dogs, black bears, goats, monkeys, buffaloes, rats and of course cattle. The 'sacred' cattle wander freely in the roads and lie in the streets ; they also eat all the garbage. In most of the towns we passed at least one area 20 yards x 20 yards of filth and litter spread over the pavements and roads which the cattle were either eating or wallowing in. The local councils obviously do not have a garbage collection service from the non-affluent areas and the residents seem to be happy to live in filth, excrement, sewerage and general disheveled areas without bothering to clean it up themselves. On the way (105 kms from Delhi) you can stop at the Rajastan motel – they have a tourist shop and a ‘coffee shop’. They switch on the shop lights when tourists arrive – prices ? well as an example for a simple local wooden chess set made from sandal wood they want Rupees 24,000 (US 511) – do you think they ever sell any ?
Agra has a shanty town surrounding the Taj Mahal called the Taj Ganj (which presumably means Dump in English). In the guidebook Lonely Planet it states that the entry charge into the Taj Mahal is Rupees 105 (US 2) - when you get there they try at the entry kiosk to charge you the new rate of Rupees 750 per head. The charge for Indians to enter the Taj Mahal is R20 (US 40 cents) so I guess the Government of India finds it acceptable to rip off tourists, just like the numerous pimps in the streets, and expect them to return. Nearby the Taj on the same road and opposite the leper hospital is the Amarvillas Oberoi hotel resort – when you enter here and find it empty you soon realize why – they politely tell you before you can sit down that US 25 (+ 8% tax) cover charge will be added to your bill per head and that the menu has been priced accordingly (ie each item will be at least US 25). Then we have the Red Fort in Agra, the entrance fee is R350 for tourists (US 7) and R 15 (US 30 cents) for Indians.
The next day we decided to go around New Delhi – the India Gate and the Parliament were quite impressive as was the Gandhi museum. We also went to the Red Fort (entrance fee US 5 for tourists and free for Indians) Nearby the Red Fort was a Native Handicrafts center set up seemingly to rip off any paleface walking through the doors. Again the lights are switched on when you enter and you are quoted ridiculous prices for junk. As an example they wanted R 35,000 for a local wooden chess set and R 15,000 for a smaller one – as we left the guy rushed out and said , OK Rupees 10,000 or what will you offer me ? I suggested he sell T-shirts for US 60 each printed with “Call me Ban Choot, I am a rich sucker tourist. Please sell me your expensive junk”
We were staying at the Grand Intercontinental where we were lucky only to have power outages every 30 minutes or so, and the next day decided to walk out of the hotel to the nearby Connaught Place. This is a large inner and outer ring of shops. The pavements once dug up are seemingly never repaired in Delhi. Zillions of touts pester you non stop so after being polite twenty times to try and stop them walking next to you with incessant banter , tugging at your clothes and arms and aggravation, it reaches the stage where even the wife has decided to belt the next one in the head.
I am afraid that Mahatma Gandhi must now be turning in his final resting place to see what has happened to his beloved India.
Aug 19, 2002, 12:42 am
#2
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: SoCal to the rest of the world...
Programs: AA EXP with lots of BA. UA 2MM Lifetime Plat - No longer chase hotel loyalty
Posts: 6,700
Welcome to India 
I've made 2 trips in the last few years..
Yes it is different... But I can tell you what you'd be hard pressed to find any place like it.
A shame that China and India were in very similar places 40 years ago... China seems to be progressing as a controlled state but India and it's democratic ways just seem to be getting left behind.
Those of you going to India... It's a great place to visit, just keep your expectations LOW and don't expect too much. Some other hints. Outside of hotels and LOCALS you know - don't be polite. That's a sure way to get crap service everywhere. Don't be a jerk either - but you get the drift.
Avoid travelling by car as much as possible. Take the higher speed trains (Shadtabi, etc..) OR fly. Expect nothing but crummy airports, crummy train stations, etc...
Another piece of advice... If you can get an Indian person you know to travel with you all the better... Makes things much easier and you get to see many things tourists won't and get less hassled.
[This message has been edited by NickP 1K (edited 08-19-2002).]
I've made 2 trips in the last few years..
Yes it is different... But I can tell you what you'd be hard pressed to find any place like it.
A shame that China and India were in very similar places 40 years ago... China seems to be progressing as a controlled state but India and it's democratic ways just seem to be getting left behind.
Those of you going to India... It's a great place to visit, just keep your expectations LOW and don't expect too much. Some other hints. Outside of hotels and LOCALS you know - don't be polite. That's a sure way to get crap service everywhere. Don't be a jerk either - but you get the drift.
Avoid travelling by car as much as possible. Take the higher speed trains (Shadtabi, etc..) OR fly. Expect nothing but crummy airports, crummy train stations, etc...
Another piece of advice... If you can get an Indian person you know to travel with you all the better... Makes things much easier and you get to see many things tourists won't and get less hassled.
[This message has been edited by NickP 1K (edited 08-19-2002).]
Aug 21, 2002, 5:38 am
#3
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: California
Programs: AA EXP 5 Mil, UA Global Services, BA Gold, DL Diamond, SPG Plat75, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 1,231
Marco Polo,
I am sorry that you had a really miserable experience going to India. Since you made reference to Lonely Planet guide, I want to pass on a piece of advice that most travel guides provide. Your experiences in self-arranged travels depend a lot on your expectations and attitude.
It is most definitely possible to have horrible experiences in India but I also know of far too many who have travelled there for the first time and have been most delighted. Most of these are business travellers with public companies I have been involved with that have excellent operations support in India.
CX operations in India have been curtailed post 9-11 and their services are bad in DEL and BOM. However, I do leverage BA services when needed (inter-airport transfer, etc.). CX flts are usually full in economy but mostly discounted in biz. They do not have F class cabins in flts to/from India. The staff do not have good training in dealing with elites (there are less than 4 flts a week from each airport - DEL, BOM). Air India is fairly strong on this route (considering that it is a second tier airline) and CX's loss is its gain.
It is possible to have absolutely hassle free travel in India with planning or by using any reputed travel agency that specializes in your segment (high-end luxury, middle-tier professional, adventure travel on budget, etc.). One of the biggest challenges in India is vendor selection (choosing the right ones to rely on, and to spend your money on).
India is definitely not a place to go with an attitude. Naipul (now a Nobel prize winner) did that decades ago and was bitterly disullisioned. If you expect it to be like a trip to Pebble Beach/Cramel (near my residence in Northern California) you will be sorely disappointed.
We use travel agencies that know how to deal with western travellers (or HongKong ones for that matter). Our core business is high-tech but almost always the visitors extend their trip for a few days to experience leisure travel.
On a general note, hundreds of CEOs and other C-level execs of Fortune 500 and Global 2000 companies visit India and have a grand time without hassles. If I get a chance, I will try to post here some of the operational tips that I have collected over years.
I am sorry that you had a really miserable experience going to India. Since you made reference to Lonely Planet guide, I want to pass on a piece of advice that most travel guides provide. Your experiences in self-arranged travels depend a lot on your expectations and attitude.
It is most definitely possible to have horrible experiences in India but I also know of far too many who have travelled there for the first time and have been most delighted. Most of these are business travellers with public companies I have been involved with that have excellent operations support in India.
CX operations in India have been curtailed post 9-11 and their services are bad in DEL and BOM. However, I do leverage BA services when needed (inter-airport transfer, etc.). CX flts are usually full in economy but mostly discounted in biz. They do not have F class cabins in flts to/from India. The staff do not have good training in dealing with elites (there are less than 4 flts a week from each airport - DEL, BOM). Air India is fairly strong on this route (considering that it is a second tier airline) and CX's loss is its gain.
It is possible to have absolutely hassle free travel in India with planning or by using any reputed travel agency that specializes in your segment (high-end luxury, middle-tier professional, adventure travel on budget, etc.). One of the biggest challenges in India is vendor selection (choosing the right ones to rely on, and to spend your money on).
India is definitely not a place to go with an attitude. Naipul (now a Nobel prize winner) did that decades ago and was bitterly disullisioned. If you expect it to be like a trip to Pebble Beach/Cramel (near my residence in Northern California) you will be sorely disappointed.
We use travel agencies that know how to deal with western travellers (or HongKong ones for that matter). Our core business is high-tech but almost always the visitors extend their trip for a few days to experience leisure travel.
On a general note, hundreds of CEOs and other C-level execs of Fortune 500 and Global 2000 companies visit India and have a grand time without hassles. If I get a chance, I will try to post here some of the operational tips that I have collected over years.
Aug 23, 2002, 3:16 am
#4
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: HKG
Programs: CX DM, SQ, BA, TG, Sheba, VN, MPO since 1980
Posts: 1,058
Hi enjoystravel. In the past twelve months I flew in excess of 300,000 miles, arranged by myself. I have lived in asia for 34 years and have been a CX Frequent Flyer since 1980. We use a very good travel agent in Delhi for meet and greet and to drive us to the airport (Indiglobe) who also gets us a hotel rate half of what is available through HKG or USA sites. The point is, the Government of India is doing less than little for its people. There is abject poverty mixed in amongst lavish and I mean lavish wealth. An Indian businessman getting out of a US $ 1.5 million Lamborghini at the Grand Intercon and 100 metres away abject poverty with 300 street sleepers living in filth and squalor. No degree of planning or travel agents can change this until the Government pulls out its finger and concetrates on its people and its infrstucture instead of the border disputes with its neighbour and who has the bigger Nuke.
Sep 2, 2002, 11:39 am
#5
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: California
Programs: AA EXP 5 Mil, UA Global Services, BA Gold, DL Diamond, SPG Plat75, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 1,231
Marco Polo, I now have a better context to understand your original stmt. Every policy has its supporters and detractors and it looks to me like you have your criticisms of the policies of the Indian govt as you understand it. I misunderstood the original post to be solely a criticism of travel experience in India extending into a general criticism of a whole nation. With respect to travel, I do believe that you can have great experiences in India without having to shut your eyes to the realities of the world, just as you can enjoy SFO, NYC, LAX without having to only deal with panhandlers, drugusers, muggers and drug dealers.
I do not feel that I can offer easy prescriptions for India as it is a unique democracy (even if flawed - the worlds largest experiment in this powerful idea of democracy) that is fairly young as an independant nation even if old as a civilization. Nations needs balanced spending and the ratios of spending by India on broad categories do not seem to be that way off from its peers. I am sure there can be a lot of variations based on which elected leadership is in power.
Here in the US we have supporters and detractors of all key policies - war on terrorism, environmental policies, education, etc. The same arguments you make about the policies of the Indian govt are made about the our US policies here - how we could divert some of the billions spent on bombs for targeted domestic poverty alleviation and skills training, how the war on drugs could earn better results by focusing on treatment and deaddiction, etc. On the other hand, most Americans feel that security is a higher priority now and we can steadily deal with issues of domestic poverty over time. When kids are sold drugs at schools some Americans feel that a "war on drug" however ineffective is still called for. How can there be a rich democracy without multiplicity of views. I do not let these arguments take away from my enjoyment of travel in this wonderful country I live in.
As I do follow India's economy with a business interest:
Indian economic growth has outpaced that of more than two-thirds of world economies over the past decade and continues to be one of the remaining strong economies in the world (along with China and a few other select regions).
According to the world factbook (published by the CIA), at PPP the GNP is $2.2 Trillion for the year 2000 making it one of the largest economies of the world. Without PPP adjustment, it is the Ninth largest economy in the world just behind China and Canada but larger than Netherlands, Australia, Russia, Taiwan, Mexico, etc.
I do not feel that I can offer easy prescriptions for India as it is a unique democracy (even if flawed - the worlds largest experiment in this powerful idea of democracy) that is fairly young as an independant nation even if old as a civilization. Nations needs balanced spending and the ratios of spending by India on broad categories do not seem to be that way off from its peers. I am sure there can be a lot of variations based on which elected leadership is in power.
Here in the US we have supporters and detractors of all key policies - war on terrorism, environmental policies, education, etc. The same arguments you make about the policies of the Indian govt are made about the our US policies here - how we could divert some of the billions spent on bombs for targeted domestic poverty alleviation and skills training, how the war on drugs could earn better results by focusing on treatment and deaddiction, etc. On the other hand, most Americans feel that security is a higher priority now and we can steadily deal with issues of domestic poverty over time. When kids are sold drugs at schools some Americans feel that a "war on drug" however ineffective is still called for. How can there be a rich democracy without multiplicity of views. I do not let these arguments take away from my enjoyment of travel in this wonderful country I live in.
As I do follow India's economy with a business interest:
Indian economic growth has outpaced that of more than two-thirds of world economies over the past decade and continues to be one of the remaining strong economies in the world (along with China and a few other select regions).
According to the world factbook (published by the CIA), at PPP the GNP is $2.2 Trillion for the year 2000 making it one of the largest economies of the world. Without PPP adjustment, it is the Ninth largest economy in the world just behind China and Canada but larger than Netherlands, Australia, Russia, Taiwan, Mexico, etc.
Sep 7, 2003, 11:34 am
#7
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 63
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Marco Polo:
on the road journey we saw and sometimes just missed hitting, camels, donkeys, dogs, black bears, goats, monkeys, buffaloes, rats and of course cattle. </font>
on the road journey we saw and sometimes just missed hitting, camels, donkeys, dogs, black bears, goats, monkeys, buffaloes, rats and of course cattle. </font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> The local councils obviously do not have a garbage collection service from the non-affluent areas and the residents seem to be happy to live in filth, excrement, sewerage and general disheveled areas without bothering to clean it up themselves. </font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">In the guidebook Lonely Planet it states that the entry charge into the Taj Mahal is Rupees 105 (US 2) - when you get there they try at the entry kiosk to charge you the new rate of Rupees 750 per head. The charge for Indians to enter the Taj Mahal is R20 (US 40 cents) so I guess the Government of India finds it acceptable to rip off tourists, just like the numerous pimps in the streets, and expect them to return. </font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> and that the menu has been priced accordingly (ie each item will be at least US 25).
</font>
</font>
Marco Polo says: "I hate myself for being alive. Please send me to India so I can be even more unhappy"