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PIO to OCI conversion - new rules - experience?
I was pleased to read on the Indian consulates website that PIO cards are now automatically considered as OCI cards.
Per CKGS (the visa processing agency for Indian consulates here in the USA) I see that one has to apply for and send in PIO cards and a whole host of documents to actually get a OCI card issued in place of a PIO (albeit for $0 charged by GoI; but two copies of everything including checklists, that CKGS asks for which is a huge pile of paperwork) and they say this becomes mandatory in a few months. However, there is also some conflicting info on the relevant GoI consular website which says border agents in India have been instructed to place a "lifelong" sticker on PIO cards that are presented at the border, and the PIO cards are considered OCI cards. I am trying to figure out whether to participate in the CKGS de-forestation effort or risk showing up at the airport in India. Planned travel is in July. Any thoughts/guidance welcome! |
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Why do you want to get an OCI card? PIO cards work well and need no replacement. They are valid for the life time of the holder as per gazette notification in later September 2014:
MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS NOTIFICATION New Delhi, the 30th September, 2014 No. 25024/9/2014-F.I.In the notification of the Government of India in the Ministry of Home Affairs number 26011/4/98-F.I dated the 19th August, 2002, published in the Gazette of India, Extraordinary, Part I, Section 1, dated the 19th August, 2002, the Central Government hereby makes the following amendments in the Scheme for issuance of Person of Indian Origin Card (PIO Card) Scheme, 2002, namely: 1. (1) This scheme may be called the Scheme for issuance of Person of Indian Origin Card (PIO Card) Amendment Scheme, 2014. (2) It shall come into effect on the date of its publication in the Official Gazette. 2. In the Scheme for issuance of Person of Indian Origin Card (PIO Card) Scheme, 2002, (a) for paragraph 6, the following paragraph shall be substituted, namely : 6. Validity of PIO Card: A PIO Card issued to an applicant shall be valid for his life time from the date of its issue provided that such applicant has a valid passport. Explanation.For the purpose of this paragraph, it is hereby clarified that a PIO Card which has been issued prior to the date of publication of this notification shall be deemed to be valid for life time of its holder subject to the condition that such person has a valid passport. (b) In paragraph 9, (i) In sub-paragraph (ii), the words and figures if his stay on any single visit in India does not exceed 180 days shall be omitted; (ii) sub-paragraph (iii) shall be omitted; (iii) sub-paragraph (iv) shall be renumbered as sub-paragraph (iii). VEENA KUMARI MEENA, Jt. Secy |
http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2...om-pio-to-oci/
As long as your PIO was issued on or before Jan 8 2015 there is no need to switch to OCI. No stickers are issued in India. At VABB there is a sign before immigration that says PIO are valid life long. |
Thanks for your quick replies.
The following language on CKGS' website got me confused (http://www.in.ckgs.us/pio.shtml) " OCI in lieu of PIO card:
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The German site says:
The validity of PIO cards is life long All the PIO cards issued since inception would be deemed as OCI cards. However holders of PIO cards may also apply for grant of OCI cards in lieu of their PIO of their PIO cards, if they so desire. Endorsements of new Passport number can be done on the existing valid PIO card. |
pio cards work absolutely fine....no need to change....i have tons of relatives who have them & have been using them for years without any issues....
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CGI Houston has this wordings now , May 25th 1:00 pm CST (http://www.cgihouston.org/news/display/111)
Consulate General of India Houston OCI in lieu of PIO – updated instructions This is in continuation of our Press Release dated 13 April 2015 on the above subject. 2. Based on feedback from PIO card holders about the difficulties faced in adhering to the deadline of 17 June 2015 for applying for an OCI card in lieu of PIO card, it has now been decided and conveyed on 20 May 2015 that the deadline of 17 June 2015 for applying for an OCI card in lieu of PIO card has been done away with. Applying for OCI cards in lieu of PIO cards at https://passport.gov.in/oci will be optional until further instructions from the Ministry of Home Affairs, though PIO card holders are encouraged to do so. 3. PIO card holders can travel to India on the basis of their valid PIO card and valid foreign passport. - See more at: http://www.cgihouston.org/news/displ....P4wKNsMb.dpuf Important Notice: OCI in lieu of PIO CardMay 22, 2015 Consulate General of India, San Francisco 22 May 2015 It has been brought to our attention that rumors are spreading among Indian Diaspora community members that PIO card holders are not able to travel to India with PIO CARD after June 18th, 2015. 2. As you are all aware that the Government of India has withdrawn the PIO Card scheme and replaced it with OCI scheme for all Indian origin US passport holders. As part of the exercise of bringing about an uniformity in the scheme, all PIO card holders were intimated to get their PIO card converted into OCI card at the earliest as per instructions issued by the Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA). As per these earlier instructions, initially for a period of 3 months, the submission of the application for OCI card in lieu of PIO card was voluntary. However, after the initial period of three months, the conversion of the cards was to be made mandatory. The persons were to apply for OCI card in lieu of PIO card only at https://passport.gov.in/oci. 3. Considering the concerns and issues related to this conversion from PIO card to OCI card, it has been decided that PIO cards already issued continue to be valid documents. Applying for OCI cards in lieu of PIO cards at the website indicated above will be optional for the applicant until further instructions. All concerned are hereby informed that there is no deadline for conversion from PIO card to OCI cards. However, we urge all PIO card holders to apply for change to OCI cards for uniformity sake. However, when passports are changed / renewed, applicants may apply for miscellaneous services to update their passport details in the OCI cards. 4. As conveyed earlier, endorsements stating that existing PIO cards are valid for life would be made at the first immigration point with which the card holder comes into contact, be it an Indian Mission, an FRRO or an immigration check-point. These endorsements/stamps would, however, not be mandatory. - See more at: http://www.cgisf.org/notice/display/....cwxWeR4d.dpuf |
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Some clarity at last! |
I am a former Indian citizen with an OCI card. My spouse has a spousal PIO card. While current PIO cards still work, holders can have it replaced with an OCI card for free (except a $20 Cox & Kings service fee). We fell for this too-good-to-be-true "FREE offer". Like many free offers, it was bait-and-switch.
The GoI web pages and the web-fillable application form list the documents required---almost nothing is required (reasonable since it is essentially a 1-to-1 exchange). CKGS lists many more documents required. We supplied everything that CGKS listed, including the original PIO card (the consulate web page says submit only a copy, but CKGS says submit the original). As soon as they received the application, CKGS e-mailed us with a list of additional demands. (Note that the instructions make clear that the Indian govt has the right to request additional documents, but these demands were made by CKGS, not the consulate, because the application was never forwarded to the consulate.) They now wanted all documents required for a fresh OCI application. They wanted us to 'provide a notarized certificate that we live together', which is apparently not the same as a marriage certificate. (This was not required at the time of the original PIO application in 2011.) CKGS also wanted me to pay them $45 to renounce MY Indian citizenship. (Apparently this is a new requirement---I switched citizenship way back in the 1990s, so it was not required at the time of my spouse's PIO application in 2011. Note that I am not the applicant for PIO-to-OCI, my spouse is.) We wrote back saying we would not supply documents that were not required according to GoI instructions or CKGS's own web page checklist. We requested CKGS to return the PIO card. That was five weeks ago. They have not responded at all in spite of e-mails and phone calls. Apparently they have confiscated the PIO card, although they don't say that either; they just don't say anything. The CKGS phone operators are very polite, they "escalate" and "start a case" but nothing ever happens. It is impossible to contact the Indian consulate by phone, but we wrote to them using their web form and also via fax, asking for their help in dealing with Cox & Kings. No response. I thought this might be useful to others who might be lured into applying for a 'free' exchange of their PIO for an OCI. |
Originally Posted by SeeBuyFly
(Post 24925086)
I am a former Indian citizen with an OCI card. My spouse has a spousal PIO card. While current PIO cards still work, holders can have it replaced with an OCI card for free (except a $20 Cox & Kings service fee). We fell for this too-good-to-be-true "FREE offer". Like many free offers, it was bait-and-switch.
The GoI web pages and the web-fillable application form list the documents required---almost nothing is required (reasonable since it is essentially a 1-to-1 exchange). CKGS lists many more documents required. We supplied everything that CGKS listed, including the original PIO card (the consulate web page says submit only a copy, but CKGS says submit the original). As soon as they received the application, CKGS e-mailed us with a list of additional demands. (Note that the instructions make clear that the Indian govt has the right to request additional documents, but these demands were made by CKGS, not the consulate, because the application was never forwarded to the consulate.) They now wanted all documents required for a fresh OCI application. They wanted us to 'provide a notarized certificate that we live together', which is apparently not the same as a marriage certificate. (This was not required at the time of the original PIO application in 2011.) CKGS also wanted me to pay them $45 to renounce MY Indian citizenship. (Apparently this is a new requirement---I switched citizenship way back in the 1990s, so it was not required at the time of my spouse's PIO application in 2011. Note that I am not the applicant for PIO-to-OCI, my spouse is.) We wrote back saying we would not supply documents that were not required according to GoI instructions or CKGS's own web page checklist. We requested CKGS to return the PIO card. That was five weeks ago. They have not responded at all in spite of e-mails and phone calls. Apparently they have confiscated the PIO card, although they don't say that either; they just don't say anything. The CKGS phone operators are very polite, they "escalate" and "start a case" but nothing ever happens. It is impossible to contact the Indian consulate by phone, but we wrote to them using their web form and also via fax, asking for their help in dealing with Cox & Kings. No response. I thought this might be useful to others who might be lured into applying for a 'free' exchange of their PIO for an OCI. |
Originally Posted by Maji
(Post 24925735)
As CKGS is a business entity, why not contact the BBB and the Attorney General of that State? Just create enough noise to make their life uncomfortable so that they will move their butts and do something.
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As I'm flying to India on the last week of June, I was about to bite the bullet and apply for the PIO conversion. Fortunately, they made it optional at the end of May. That list of documents they are asking for is....humongous. Ideally, they should have asked only for a recent photo, recent utility bill to prove your address , nominal fee to make a digital card only. They say its 'FREE', but the amount of time to make all the triplicate copies with notaries and blah..blah will cost at least 2 days of work time.
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Originally Posted by SeeBuyFly
(Post 24925086)
I am a former Indian citizen with an OCI card. My spouse has a spousal PIO card. While current PIO cards still work, holders can have it replaced with an OCI card for free (except a $20 Cox & Kings service fee). We fell for this too-good-to-be-true "FREE offer". Like many free offers, it was bait-and-switch...
The end result is that while GoI keeps 'encouraging' people to convert, and keeps floating deadlines by which people might be required to convert, the government and its contractors have a built-in preference for increasing amounts of paperwork, countersigned, rubber-stamped and in triplicate. Thus PIO-to-OCI conversion, which should be automatic, takes more paperwork than the original PIO did. |
Here is an update of the worthlessness of an OCI status.
Despite being registered as an OCI for nearly 10 years, I recently started a new job that requires travelling to India for a very specific reason. I thought that my OCI status, which is regulated under the Citizenship Act of India, would suffice as I have a multi-entry, multi-purpose lifelong entitlement to enter and reside in India. It turns out that this is not quite so. I now hold a valid OCI registration certificate and a valid visa. Luckily, I also hold 2 passports so that the OCI vignette and the visa are in each. India - Make your mind up? What am I, a citizen under the Citizenship Act (albeit a 2nd class without all the rights of a sole Indian national) or a foreigner when it suits them? |
Originally Posted by d3vski
(Post 25022230)
Here is an update of the worthlessness of an OCI status.
Despite being registered as an OCI for nearly 10 years, I recently started a new job that requires travelling to India for a very specific reason. I thought that my OCI status, which is regulated under the Citizenship Act of India, would suffice as I have a multi-entry, multi-purpose lifelong entitlement to enter and reside in India. It turns out that this is not quite so. I now hold a valid OCI registration certificate and a valid visa. Luckily, I also hold 2 passports so that the OCI vignette and the visa are in each. India - Make your mind up? OCI is not actual citizenship of India, and never has been. Every government involved in the PIO and OCI arrangements has been advised of the limits of the OCI status absent a constitutional amendment to address the dual-citizenship restriction. |
Originally Posted by GUWonder
(Post 25024713)
Some of this can't be changed unilaterally and/or so easily by the Indian government -- at least so long as India maintains its constitutional ban on Indian citizens willfully holding citizenship of India and an Indian-recognized sovereign state at the same time.
OCI is not actual citizenship of India, and never has been. Every government involved in the PIO and OCI arrangements has been advised of the limits of the OCI status absent a constitutional amendment to address the dual-citizenship restriction. I know India does not care but the UK government that British Overseas Citizens (a particular sub class of citizens) and holders of OCI status are ineligible to register as full British Citizens under provisions to reduce statelessness as it is classed as type of citizenship similar to how BOC status is a type of British Citizenship. I would go as far to state that the OCI is incompatible with the constitution of India and therefore illegal for the reasons outlined above. |
The OCI and the PIO are just longer/maybe lifetime visas with certain previleges in India ( property etc. same as to an NRI- Non resident Indian, lesser than that also) thats it:mad:.
Its no passport or citizenship just booklets with the most absurd names PIO ( person of Indian origin- when one is not/ foreign spouse) OCI (overseas citizenship of India- its no citizenship ) |
Originally Posted by seebuyfly
(Post 24960720)
we got the pio card back after more than six weeks. Maybe complaining to the consulate helped, although we never heard anything directly.
The end result is that while goi keeps 'encouraging' people to convert, and keeps floating deadlines by which people might be required to convert, the government and its contractors have a built-in preference for increasing amounts of paperwork, countersigned, rubber-stamped and in triplicate. Thus pio-to-oci conversion, which should be automatic, takes more paperwork than the original pio did. |
PIO / OCI limbo
My wife currently has a PIO card which she is eligible for via descent from her grandfather (who was never an Indian citizen, but was a British citizen born in pre-Independence India).
The local Indian High Commission in her country of citizenship (who issued her PIO card and also endorsed it last month with "lifetime validity") says that PIO cards continue to be valid and that the physical PIO card now grants OCI status effective from 2015. Converting the PIO card to an OCI card is highly recommended, but is not mandatory. However, she is not able to convert her PIO card to an OCI card as she is not eligible to apply for OCI status. She is not eligible for OCI status for multiple reasons :
We have spoken to multiple Indian consular posts and they give contradictory answers. Some state unequivocally that the PIO card remains valid indefinitely, while others state equally unequivocally that the OCI card is mandatory for travel after 01APR16. She is not able to apply for a tourist visa as she already has PIO status endorsed on her passport with lifetime validity. The local High Commission says they cannot issue tourist visas unless she applies to relinquish her PIO/OCI status, which is a complex process. Does anyone know for certain (viz. via a GoI gazette or similar press release put out by the Central Government - not just a consular post interpretation which varies from post to post) :
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Originally Posted by B747-437B
(Post 26219190)
We have spoken to multiple Indian consular posts and they give contradictory answers. Some state unequivocally that the PIO card remains valid indefinitely.
the thread below might have some useful information: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/india...xperience.html |
If the PIO is issued as 'lifelong' it remains valid and you can travel with it. My wife has hers by virtue of being married to me and back in 2014 they told it good I got the PIO before its replaced by OCI.
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Wow - the PIOs become invalid after 1 April 2016??
I thought they declared it as lifetime now! Found this in a quick search: http://www.cgisf.org/page/display/30/231 |
Originally Posted by oliver2002
(Post 26224042)
If the PIO is issued as 'lifelong' it remains valid and you can travel with it. My wife has hers by virtue of being married to me and back in 2014 they told it good I got the PIO before its replaced by OCI.
Good/bad?? |
My kids and wife got 'lifelong' written in the validity field from day one. I didn't bother to get mine endorsed, should probably get it done asap. Currently it says September 2022.
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Originally Posted by oliver2002
(Post 26224078)
My kids and wife got 'lifelong' written in the validity field from day one. I didn't bother to get mine endorsed, should probably get it done asap. Currently it says September 2022.
They'll probably say: "Mere pas stamp nahi hai."! |
Ah rats, I should have asked yesterday, I was at the airport about 2 hours before departure :(
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Originally Posted by Keyser
(Post 26224017)
have you been able to get this from them in writing????
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The Gazette notification from 30.9.2014 made all PIO cards valid for life time. The Ordinance from 6.1.2015 said the GoI can at any time do a gazette notification of the day from which all PIO card holders are 'deemed' to be OCIs. Did that happen?
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IndiaMike discussion here: http://www.indiamike.com/india/for-c...o-oci-t242694/
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Originally Posted by Indian Government Source 1
As per the Gazette of India (Part-I, Section-I) published on 09.01.2015, all the existing Persons of Indian Origin (PIO) card holder registered as such under new PIO Card scheme 2002, shall be deemed to be Overseas Citizens of India Cardholder. Again as per the Gazette of India (Part-I, Section-I) published on 30.09.2014, a PIO card issued to an applicant shall be valid for his lifetime, provided such applicant has a valid Passport.
Originally Posted by Indian Government Source 2
Last date for conversion of PIO to OCI card is 31.3.2016; after which all PIO cards would cease to be valid.
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Originally Posted by B747-437B
(Post 26235431)
Direct contradiction.
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Hi, I'm curious to know how you proceeded with this? The CKGS outsourcing agency in NY wants me to submit my original passport and PIO - which doesn't make any sense. Why would I need to do that?
It's frustrating. |
Some more clarifications that confuse the situation further, but bring a bit of enlightenment to the thought process in Babudom.
a) The "Overseas Citizen of India (OCI)" scheme has also been discontinued at the same time that the PIO scheme was discontinued. All persons who were previously classified as OCI are now classified as "OCI Card Holders". (Ed Note : This is a subtle but very key difference) b) All former PIOs who were not previously eligible to become OCI due to different eligibility criteria can now be classified as "OCI Card Holders". The eligibility to be an OCI Card Holder is different than either that of the former OCI or former PIO scheme - it is a hybrid of the two. c) There is no longer the requirement that the country of citizenship of an OCI Card Holder permits dual citizenship since the OCI scheme has been discontinued. It is now merely an OCI Card Holder scheme rather than an Overseas Citizenship scheme. d) All PIO cards are considered to be converted to and treated as OCI cards automatically. The PIO card is no longer valid for travel as it is now considered to be an OCI card. Therefore it is correct that all PIO cards are not valid for travel after 31MAR16. They are also not valid for travel before 31MAR16. The PIO card no longer exists. Any document that says it is a PIO card is actually an OCI card. e) The Central Government reserve the right to change their position regarding the former PIO cards being treated as OCI cards, so even though the former PIO card is now considered to be an OCI card that may not be the case in the future. However, any such date has not been communicated at this time. f) The 31MAR16 deadline is the last date at which an application to convert a former PIO card that is currently considered to be an OCI card into an actual OCI card can be made for free and without reference to the revised eligibility criteria for "OCI Card Holder". A former PIO card continues to be considered as an OCI card after this date and until the Central Government decides at their sole discretion that this is no longer the case. |
Asked the BOI folks at BOM, CCU and DEL on March 6 and 16 respectively what exactly changes for me (PIO card holder, card issued in 2002) next month: all said 'absolutely nothing, sir, you can travel with this card just like today' :cool:
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The last date for submission of applications for registration as OCI cardholder by the erstwhile PIO cardholders has been extended till 30th June, 2016.
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I'm now having trouble with this.
Started prepping my application for PIO to OCI in Feb, but didn't realize they needed an original marriage certificate (wife is an OCI...that's how I got my status) and notarized statement. But I needed a new copy of my marriage certificate. When that arrived, I put everything together, but by then, the checklist changed, and they supposedly didn't need it anymore. I called in and talked to them 3 times and they all stated to follow the new checklist exactly. Which is what I did. The checklist states a notarized joint affidavit for San Francisco only. I read the checklist over a dozen times, so I am absolutely positive of what it says. They are claiming that they can ask for anything they want beyond the list. I am unable to get to a supervisor. I told them that I would send it in, assuming they were able to provide a shipping label to me, since they aren't asking for documents that were missing, but additional documents they never asked for. They say they will never pay shipping for anyone. Any tips for moving forward? My inclination at this point, is to just abandon the application completely, and just use my PIO for everything going forward, since it was clear through CKGS that the switch wasn't mandatory. If I show up in Bangalore and they send me back to the US, that's fine...they clearly don't need visitors if they make people jump through hoops to even try. |
Lesson: Baboos dont think. If they had ability, they would not have become baboos.
Did you remember stupidity of 10 year mutiple entry visitor visa holder can not re-enter india for few months after one visit? It took 3 years for that ultra stupid rule to go away. If u get OCI at age 21 then for next 28 years, Baboos do not have any security concerns. But if you get OCI at age 49 then starting very next year, they have security concern and want you to get new OCI. Oh, by the way, that is only if u r getting new US passport. If u can delay getting new passport until its maturity then Baboos will sit tight on their "security concern". List can go on... |
Originally Posted by emcampbe
(Post 26421066)
My inclination at this point, is to just abandon the application completely, and just use my PIO for everything going forward, since it was clear through CKGS that the switch wasn't mandatory.
I hope this clarifies. :p |
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