Requesting help from someone with TIMATIC access re PIO
Nov 16, 2015 | 12:35 pm
#1
Original Poster
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Requesting help from someone with TIMATIC access re PIO
Mods, please move to a more appropriate forum if needed.
I'm trying to find out if there will be an issue at checkin for the following situation:
1. Mother and minor daughter planning travel USA to India in late January 2016.
2. Both are US Citizens, both with PIO cards.
3. Daughter recently got a new passport upon expiry of the old one.
4. PIO lists previous, expired passport number.
5. Consulates no longer endorse/update PIO's with new passport number, since new PIO's no longer being issued, and advising conversion to OCI.
6. Consulate told me that if they carry old and new passports plus PIO, there will be no issue at immigration in India, BUT that the airline may refuse boarding since current passport number is not in the PIO.
7. They advised applying for OCI, which we will do, but that will not process prior to the trip.
I don't envision it to be a problem, but can't take that <5% chance that an overzealous and/or uninformed checkin agent could cause issues or refuse boarding.
So the question is, does TIMATIC have any specific guidance for this situation, i.e., does it say that old+new passports plus PIO (with old passport number) is valid for travel to India? If so, then they are good.
Anyone that can provide the full text/guidance from TIMATIC for this situation?
Summary: US passport holder/US resident traveling USA to India; PIO card shows expired passport number; traveling with both expired and new passport.
Thanks!
I'm trying to find out if there will be an issue at checkin for the following situation:
1. Mother and minor daughter planning travel USA to India in late January 2016.
2. Both are US Citizens, both with PIO cards.
3. Daughter recently got a new passport upon expiry of the old one.
4. PIO lists previous, expired passport number.
5. Consulates no longer endorse/update PIO's with new passport number, since new PIO's no longer being issued, and advising conversion to OCI.
6. Consulate told me that if they carry old and new passports plus PIO, there will be no issue at immigration in India, BUT that the airline may refuse boarding since current passport number is not in the PIO.
7. They advised applying for OCI, which we will do, but that will not process prior to the trip.
I don't envision it to be a problem, but can't take that <5% chance that an overzealous and/or uninformed checkin agent could cause issues or refuse boarding.
So the question is, does TIMATIC have any specific guidance for this situation, i.e., does it say that old+new passports plus PIO (with old passport number) is valid for travel to India? If so, then they are good.
Anyone that can provide the full text/guidance from TIMATIC for this situation?
Summary: US passport holder/US resident traveling USA to India; PIO card shows expired passport number; traveling with both expired and new passport.
Thanks!
Nov 16, 2015 | 3:11 pm
#2
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,818
There has never been a problem with any of this. Endorsing a PIO card with the new passport number has never been necessary, and it is even less necessary now.
My wife is a PIO and has been traveling with PIO card and old+new passports for several years. This is not just anecdotal evidence; it is standard, it is old news, and all the airlines know about it. Nowadays even the old passport is not required (see below) but you might want to carry it anyway since it's not a big deal.
There are multiple ways for you to access Timatic data yourself. One way is through Skyteam's web interface:
My wife is a PIO and has been traveling with PIO card and old+new passports for several years. This is not just anecdotal evidence; it is standard, it is old news, and all the airlines know about it. Nowadays even the old passport is not required (see below) but you might want to carry it anyway since it's not a big deal.
There are multiple ways for you to access Timatic data yourself. One way is through Skyteam's web interface:
Passengers who have renewed their passport since obtaining OCI status are also not required to travel with their original passport...PIO cards currently in circulation are considered to have the same status as an OCI card/booklet.
Last edited by SeeBuyFly; Nov 16, 2015 at 3:16 pm
Nov 17, 2015 | 1:00 am
#3
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both my uncles are u.s. citizens with pio cards....they have traveled to india multiple times since the expiry of their old passport which is mentioned on their pio card....till date they have never had a problem....
Nov 17, 2015 | 8:43 pm
#4
Join Date: Oct 2010
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The MHA guidelines are very clear: "OCI registration certificate (OCI card) must be RE-ISSUED EACH TIME A NEW PASSPORT is issued up to the completion of 20 years of age in view of biological changes in face of the applicant."
I'd recommend getting in writing from the consulate that the unendorsed PIO card is valid.
There is nothing in TIMATIC that talks about passport listed on PIO card matching passport being traveled on. Given this ambiguity, it is not outside the realm of possibility that boarding or admission into India could be denied. In the future, I recommend applying for visas in a timely manner.
I'd recommend getting in writing from the consulate that the unendorsed PIO card is valid.
There is nothing in TIMATIC that talks about passport listed on PIO card matching passport being traveled on. Given this ambiguity, it is not outside the realm of possibility that boarding or admission into India could be denied. In the future, I recommend applying for visas in a timely manner.
Nov 17, 2015 | 10:11 pm
#5
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 52,682
TIMATIC says nothing about updating your PIO card:
The consulate will not give you a clean chit to travel without updating the PIO card:
https://www.indianembassy.de/pages.php?id=151
Code:
>RT
FORMAT UEBERPRUEFEN
>TIRV/NAMUC/EMMUC/DEDEL/TRDOH
TIMATIC-3 / 18NOV15 / 0501 UTC
NATIONAL GERMANY (DE) /EMBARKATION GERMANY (DE)
TRANSIT QATAR (QA) /DESTINATION INDIA (IN)
ALSO CHECK DESTINATION INFORMATION BELOW
VISA TRANSIT QATAR (QA)
...... NORMAL PASSPORTS ONLY ......
TWOV (TRANSIT WITHOUT VISA):
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR HOLDERS OF ONWARD TICKETS FOR A MAX.
>MDTI
>MD
TRANSIT >TIRULES/R32 TIME OF 24 HOURS.
- HOLDERS OF A PREARRANGED STOPOVER PAID BY CARRIER (STPC)
ISSUED TO THOSE IN TRANSIT FOR MIN. 8 HOURS AND MAX. 24
HOURS ARE PERMITTED TO LEAVE THE TRANSIT AREA, IF HOLDING
PASSPORTS VALID FOR AT LEAST 3 MONTHS AND SUBJECT TO
APPROVAL FROM IMMIGRATION.
VISA DESTINATION INDIA (IN)
...... NORMAL PASSPORTS ONLY ......
>MDTI
>MD
PASSPORT REQUIRED.
- PASSPORTS AND OTHER DOCUMENTS ACCEPTED FOR ENTRY MUST BE
VALID ON ARRIVAL.
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR PASSENGERS WITH AN "OVERSEAS CITIZEN
OF INDIA" CARD OR BOOKLET.
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR PASSENGERS WITH A "PERSON OF INDIAN
ORIGIN" CARD.
VISA ISSUANCE:
- HOLDERS OF NORMAL PASSPORTS ISSUED TO NATIONALS OF GERMANY
>MDTI
>MD
ARRIVING AT AHMEDABAD, (AMD), AMRTISAR (ATQ), BENGALURU
(BLR), CHENNAI (MAA), DELHI (DEL), GAYA (GAY), GOA (GOI),
HYDERABAD (HYD), JAIPUR (JAI), KOCHI (COK), KOLKATA (CCU),
LUCKNOW (LKO), MUMBAI (BOM), THIRUVANANTHAPURAM (TRV),
TIRUCHIRAPALLI (TRZ), OR VARANASI (VNS) CAN APPLY FOR A 30
DAY, SINGLE ENTRY E-TOURIST VISA AT
HTTPS://INDIANVISAONLINE.GOV.IN/ . A PRINTED COPY OF THE
E-TOURIST VISA AND A PASSPORT, VALID FOR AT LEAST 6 MONTHS
ON ARRIVAL, CONTAINING AT LEAST TWO UNUSED VISA PAGES MUST
BE PRESENTED UPON ARRIVAL. >TIDFT/IN/VI/IS/ID60526
>MDTI
>MD
MINORS:
- WARNING! IN ACCORDANCE WITH EUROPEAN UNION (EU) LEGISLATION,
ALL MINORS WHO ARE NATIONALS OF GERMANY WILL BE EXPECTED TO
HOLD THEIR OWN PASSPORT OR NATIONAL ID CARD (WHERE
APPLICABLE) WHEN DEPARTING FROM BULGARIA, CROATIA, CYPRUS,
ROMANIA OR A SCHENGEN MEMBER STATE >TIRGL/SCHN.
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:
- INDIAN LAW DOES NOT PERMIT DUAL NATIONALITY FOR NATIONALS OF
INDIA. >TIDFT/IN/PA/AI/ID30614
- U VISAS ARE NO LONGER ISSUED TO THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GRANTED
>MDTI
>MD
OVERSEAS CITIZENSHIP OF INDIA (OCI) STATUS.
>TIDFT/IN/VI/AI/ID58788
- INDIAN VISA STICKERS HAVE NO SEAL/SIGNATURE FROM THE ISSUING
AUTHORITY. (SEE NOTE 57490)
NOTE 57490: NOT APPLICABLE TO PIO CARD HOLDERS.
- NATIONALS OF GERMANY BEING OF PAKISTANI ORIGIN HOLDING
MULTIPLE ENTRY TOURIST VISAS (TYPE T), WITH A VALIDITY
RANGING FROM ABOVE 3 MONTHS AND UP TO 10 YEARS, ARE REQUIRED
TO HAVE AT LEAST 60 DAYS BETWEEN VISITS. (SEE NOTE 54918)
NOTE 54918: THOSE WISHING TO RE-ENTER BEFORE THE 60 DAYS
>MDTI
>MD
HAVE EXPIRED MUST CONTACT AN INDIAN MISSION ABROAD TO
OBTAIN PERMISSION. >TIDFT/IN/VI/NO/ID54918
- VISA EXTENSIONS POSSIBLE, EXCEPT FOR "T" (TOURIST) VISAS AND
TRANSIT VISAS, BY APPLYING AT THE MINISTRY OF FOREIGN
AFFAIRS. (SEE NOTE 57490)
NOTE 57490: NOT APPLICABLE TO PIO CARD HOLDERS.
- VALID VISAS IN EXPIRED PASSPORTS ARE STILL ACCEPTABLE,
PROVIDED ACCOMPANIED BY A VALID PASSPORT OF THE SAME
NATIONALITY OF THE EXPIRED PASSPORT.
- HOLDERS OF VISAS THAT SPECIFICALLY STATE THE CITY/AIRPORT OF
>MDTI
>MD
ENTRY MUST ENTER INDIA AT THE SPECIFIED CITY/AIRPORT. (SEE
NOTE 57490)
NOTE 57490: NOT APPLICABLE TO PIO CARD HOLDERS.
- NATIONALS OF GERMANY, BELONGING TO A TOURIST GROUP
>TIDFT/IN/VI/AI/ID30072 (SEE NOTE 57490)
NOTE 57490: NOT APPLICABLE TO PIO CARD HOLDERS.
- RESTRICTED/PROTECTED AREAS PERMITS: A PERMIT IS REQUIRED FOR
FOREIGNERS WISHING TO VISIT THE FOLLOWING:
>TIDFT/IN/VI/AI/ID25974
WARNING:
>MDTI
>MD
- PASSENGERS WHO HAVE VISITED GUINEA, LIBERIA, MALI OR SIERRA
LEONE WITHIN THE LAST 30 DAYS MUST ENTER INDIA AT BANGALORE
(BLR), CHENNAI (MAA) ,COCHIN (COK), DELHI (DEL), HYDERABAD
(HYD), KOLKATA (CCU) OR MUMBAI (BOM).
- VISITORS HOLDING TOURIST OR BUSINESS VISAS MUST HOLD
RETURN/ONWARD TICKETS. (SEE NOTE 57490) (SEE NOTE 57548)
NOTE 57490: NOT APPLICABLE TO PIO CARD HOLDERS.
NOTE 57548: NOT APPLICABLE TO HOLDERS OF MULTIPLE ENTRY
VISA, ISSUED FOR VALIDITY PERIOD OF AT LEAST 1 YEAR. NOT
APPLICABLE TO HOLDERS OF ANY OTHER TYPE OF VISA.
>MDTI
>MD
SIMPLIFY YOUR REQUEST USE TIFA, TIFV AND TIFH
FULL TEXT AVAILABLE USE TIDFT
CHECK >TINEWS/N1 - FRENCH TERROR ATTACKS <#X2013; NEW
SECURITY MEASURES IN FRANCE, GERMANY, AUSTRIA AND SWEDEN
SCAN COMPLETE
>
>
https://www.indianembassy.de/pages.php?id=151
In case the PIO card holder has a new German passport, then he/she can travel to India on their new passport after getting the same endorsed on the PIO card. This can be done by applying for miscellaneous PIO service at the mission.
Nov 21, 2015 | 10:21 am
#6
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Georgia, USA
Programs: DL Diamond, UA Silver, AV
Posts: 126
U VISAS ARE NO LONGER ISSUED TO THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GRANTED
>MDTI
>MD
OVERSEAS CITIZENSHIP OF INDIA (OCI) STATUS.
>MDTI
>MD
OVERSEAS CITIZENSHIP OF INDIA (OCI) STATUS.
Of course, I can't see why the Indian authorities would require two separate documents testifying to the same thing (the card and the visa stamp). However, the U visa no longer a requirement? This is the first I've heard of it.
Jan 26, 2016 | 9:55 am
#7
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Okay, I wanted to follow up with the results.
I spoke again to an individual at the embassy in Washington, who advised me that there will be no issue, that my daughter can travel with old and new passports and PIO card. He even agreed to send me an email confirming this that included his title/contact info for me to print out and carry.
We went armed with TIMATIC info from Emirates' website, the email from the embassy, and a letter downloaded from the NY consulate website advising airlines to accept PIO's for travel to India even though PIO program is phased out.
As a backup, I even filled out and printed a visa application for her, along with birth certificate and passport photos in case we needed to apply for an emergency visa at the NY consulate in the event of a problem at checkin.
End result? Absolutely ZERO issue during checkin with Emirates at JFK, they simply entered info from passports and PIO cards, never asked for old passport. BP's issued, and they were on their merry way.
A lot of worrying on my part for nothing!
I spoke again to an individual at the embassy in Washington, who advised me that there will be no issue, that my daughter can travel with old and new passports and PIO card. He even agreed to send me an email confirming this that included his title/contact info for me to print out and carry.
We went armed with TIMATIC info from Emirates' website, the email from the embassy, and a letter downloaded from the NY consulate website advising airlines to accept PIO's for travel to India even though PIO program is phased out.
As a backup, I even filled out and printed a visa application for her, along with birth certificate and passport photos in case we needed to apply for an emergency visa at the NY consulate in the event of a problem at checkin.
End result? Absolutely ZERO issue during checkin with Emirates at JFK, they simply entered info from passports and PIO cards, never asked for old passport. BP's issued, and they were on their merry way.
A lot of worrying on my part for nothing!
Mar 7, 2016 | 7:52 pm
#8
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: PHX
Programs: AA, SPG, UR
Posts: 329
Good read.. I am in the same boat with my 2 kids with OCIs in expired passports and new passports in hand. All 4 are US citizens, flying AA/Etihad, PHX-LAX-AUH-BOM//AUH-LAX-PHX. What is TIMATIC and how do I get it for AA/Etihad? I plan to carry kids' old/expired US passports with lifelong U visa sticker, original OCI booklet and of course new passports. Parents OCIs are in current US passports. + carrying the booklets too. I hope not be turned back from airport and spoil the whole vacation. Too short a time to apply fore reissue for kids and risk not even having their docs in hand when its time to outbound. Wondering if I should try and check with SF consulate but worried about the red-tape I have seen on the humongous re-issue documentation requirements.
Mar 7, 2016 | 11:46 pm
#9
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 52,682
The TIMATIC entry for your situation is as follows:
You should be fine.
Code:
>RT
FORMAT UEBERPRUEFEN
>TIRV/NAPHX/EMPHX/DEBOM/TRAUH
TIMATIC-3 / 08MAR16 / 0644 UTC
NATIONAL USA (US) /EMBARKATION USA (US)
TRANSIT UNITED ARAB EMIRATES (AE)
DESTINATION INDIA (IN)
ALSO CHECK DESTINATION INFORMATION BELOW
VISA TRANSIT UNITED ARAB EMIRATES (AE)
...... NORMAL PASSPORTS ONLY ......
TWOV (TRANSIT WITHOUT VISA):
>MDTI
>MD
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR HOLDERS OF CONFIRMED ONWARD TICKETS
FOR A MAX. TRANSIT >TIRULES/R32 TIME OF 24 HOURS.
VISA DESTINATION INDIA (IN)
...... NORMAL PASSPORTS ONLY ......
PASSPORT REQUIRED.
- PASSPORTS AND OTHER DOCUMENTS ACCEPTED FOR ENTRY MUST BE
VALID ON ARRIVAL.
ADMISSION AND TRANSIT RESTRICTIONS:
>MDTI
>MD
- VISITORS WITH A NON-MACHINE READABLE PASSPORT ARE NOT
ALLOWED TO ENTER.
- THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO VISITORS WITH A VALID VISA ON A
NON-MACHINE READABLE PASSPORT, WHO ARE ALLOWED TO ENTER.
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR PASSENGERS WITH AN "OVERSEAS CITIZEN
OF INDIA" CARD OR BOOKLET.
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR PASSENGERS WITH A "PERSON OF INDIAN
ORIGIN" CARD.
VISA ISSUANCE:
>MDTI
>MD
- HOLDERS OF NORMAL PASSPORTS ISSUED TO NATIONALS OF USA
ARRIVING AT AHMEDABAD, (AMD), AMRITSAR (ATQ), BENGALURU
(BLR), CHENNAI (MAA), DELHI (DEL), GAYA (GAY), GOA (GOI),
HYDERABAD (HYD), JAIPUR (JAI), KOCHI (COK), KOLKATA (CCU),
LUCKNOW (LKO), MUMBAI (BOM), THIRUVANANTHAPURAM (TRV),
TIRUCHIRAPALLI (TRZ), OR VARANASI (VNS) CAN APPLY FOR A 30
DAY, SINGLE ENTRY E-TOURIST VISA AT
HTTPS://INDIANVISAONLINE.GOV.IN/ . A PRINTED COPY OF THE
E-TOURIST VISA AND A PASSPORT, VALID FOR AT LEAST 6 MONTHS
ON ARRIVAL, CONTAINING AT LEAST TWO UNUSED VISA PAGES MUST
>MDTI
>MD
BE PRESENTED UPON ARRIVAL. >TIDFT/IN/VI/IS/ID60526
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:
- INDIAN LAW DOES NOT PERMIT DUAL NATIONALITY FOR NATIONALS OF
INDIA. >TIDFT/IN/PA/AI/ID30614
- U VISAS ARE NO LONGER ISSUED TO THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GRANTED
OVERSEAS CITIZENSHIP OF INDIA (OCI) STATUS.
>TIDFT/IN/VI/AI/ID58788
- PASSENGERS WITH A REGISTRATION CERTIFICATE/RESIDENTIAL
PERMIT MUST ALSO TRAVEL WITH THE SUPPORTING DOCUMENTS
ALLOWING THEM TO STAY IN INDIA, E.G. PIO.
>MDTI
>MD
- INDIAN VISA STICKERS HAVE NO SEAL/SIGNATURE FROM THE ISSUING
AUTHORITY. (SEE NOTE 57490)
NOTE 57490: NOT APPLICABLE TO PIO CARD HOLDERS.
- NATIONALS OF USA BEING OF PAKISTANI ORIGIN HOLDING MULTIPLE
ENTRY TOURIST VISAS (TYPE T), WITH A VALIDITY RANGING FROM
ABOVE 3 MONTHS AND UP TO 10 YEARS, ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE AT
LEAST 60 DAYS BETWEEN VISITS. (SEE NOTE 54918)
NOTE 54918: THOSE WISHING TO RE-ENTER BEFORE THE 60 DAYS
HAVE EXPIRED MUST CONTACT AN INDIAN MISSION ABROAD TO
OBTAIN PERMISSION. >TIDFT/IN/VI/NO/ID54918
>MDTI
>MD
- VISA EXTENSIONS POSSIBLE, EXCEPT FOR "T" (TOURIST) VISAS AND
TRANSIT VISAS, BY APPLYING AT THE MINISTRY OF FOREIGN
AFFAIRS. (SEE NOTE 57490)
NOTE 57490: NOT APPLICABLE TO PIO CARD HOLDERS.
- VALID VISAS IN EXPIRED PASSPORTS ARE STILL ACCEPTABLE,
PROVIDED ACCOMPANIED BY A VALID PASSPORT OF THE SAME
NATIONALITY OF THE EXPIRED PASSPORT.
- HOLDERS OF VISAS THAT SPECIFICALLY STATE THE CITY/AIRPORT OF
ENTRY MUST ENTER INDIA AT THE SPECIFIED CITY/AIRPORT. (SEE
NOTE 57490)
>MDTI
>MD
NOTE 57490: NOT APPLICABLE TO PIO CARD HOLDERS.
- NATIONALS OF USA, BELONGING TO A TOURIST GROUP
>TIDFT/IN/VI/AI/ID30072 (SEE NOTE 57490)
NOTE 57490: NOT APPLICABLE TO PIO CARD HOLDERS.
- RESTRICTED/PROTECTED AREAS PERMITS: A PERMIT IS REQUIRED FOR
FOREIGNERS WISHING TO VISIT THE FOLLOWING:
>TIDFT/IN/VI/AI/ID25974
WARNING:
- PASSENGERS WHO HAVE VISITED GUINEA, LIBERIA, MALI OR SIERRA
LEONE WITHIN THE LAST 30 DAYS MUST ENTER INDIA AT BANGALORE
>MDTI
>MD
(BLR), CHENNAI (MAA) ,COCHIN (COK), DELHI (DEL), HYDERABAD
(HYD), KOLKATA (CCU) OR MUMBAI (BOM).
- VISITORS HOLDING TOURIST OR BUSINESS VISAS MUST HOLD
RETURN/ONWARD TICKETS. (SEE NOTE 57490) (SEE NOTE 57548)
NOTE 57490: NOT APPLICABLE TO PIO CARD HOLDERS.
NOTE 57548: NOT APPLICABLE TO HOLDERS OF MULTIPLE ENTRY
VISA, ISSUED FOR VALIDITY PERIOD OF AT LEAST 1 YEAR. NOT
APPLICABLE TO HOLDERS OF ANY OTHER TYPE OF VISA.
SIMPLIFY YOUR REQUEST USE TIFA, TIFV AND TIFH
>MDTI
>MD
FULL TEXT AVAILABLE USE TIDFT
CHECK >TINEWS/N1 - US: ELECTRONIC SYSTEM FOR TRAVEL
AUTHORIZATION CHANGES
SCAN COMPLETE
>
>