SuloL

Or maybe AY could sustain its own flight with enough CZ feeders from the other end and possible co-marketing efforts? I don't really care, but for the odd chance that I fly to/from CAN, I would probably prefer AY metal. Don't know which frames CZ would roster on the route, but essentially all of them seem terrible configs (except the A380, which we are unlikely to see..)

Clydez

Qatar bought 5% CZ.

Sorry im too excited, probably one of few wanting CZ join OW.

ffay005

It's a huge city and an important economic area, but AY only flies there occasionally, with a few weeklies. By now, it should definitely have evolved into a daily, year-round destination.

intuition

They are clearly struggeling, either with profitability or with making up their mind ((Perhaps they are struggeling with permits/authorites.)

They've pulled out of CAN once, and now they've run it like a leisure destination for a few years.

QR, who entered CAN way after AY, manages to fly a daily A380.

Courmisch

If QR still plans to leave Oneworld, this will not end up a particularly meaningful development

I guess the Finnish side PR only comes next week when the Finns come back from vacation. I wonder what are the implications for frequent fliers though.

So far, it looks like a plain normal codeshare agreement (as with AF and TP), where we'd get credits only if buying AY marketing codes and otherwise nothing.

intuition

Today they released info on new routes for winter 19/20 (CTS and PUJ)

Still no news on CZ, neither on codeshares nor on increase/cancel HEL-CAN. Odd that they are sitting on this info.

Courmisch

Yeah, I would have expected a PR last week when the Finns came back from vacation.

Then again, it's only a MoU as of yet, probably waiting for authorities approval.

OH-LGG

Cancelling CAN? Why?

intuition

As in 'Cancel AY metal and rely on CZ metal and AY codeshare' for that route.
The linked articles talks about resource sharing, one possible sharing would be to let CZ handle the HEL-CAN, no?

My assumption, right or wrong, is that for the 8 codeshared routes to Australasia to be successful, HEL-CAN would have to be at least daily and year-around.
That can be solved by anything from AY supplying all the resources to CZ supplying all the resources (and any combination in between). Hence my "increase/cancel" moniker.

intuition

CZ has ex CAN:
2 daily to SYD, departing around 8 and 21.
2 daily to MEL, departing around 9 and 21
2 daily to AKL, departing around 00 and 14
1 daily to PER, departing around 14
1 daily to CNS, departing around 22
1 daily to CHC, departing around 01
1 daily to ADL, departing around 22

We haven't heard on which there will be AY codes, but there are certainly some blocks that could fit. if HEL-CAN is served daily with a ≈19.00 arrival, then SYD, MEL, CNS, ADL, AKL and even CHC could have decent connection.

Finnair currently has a 07.30 arrival which would make sense with the early SYD and MEL flights. But that is just 2 of the 8 codeshares talked about. AKL and PER with a 6,5 h layover is not too bad, so let's count 4 decent connections!


Also, for AY to go to CAN daily/year-round with AY metal would mean supplying 3x more resources than currently (now half week, half year => full week full year). Are there metal to spare for that? Are there overfly rights and landing permits for that?

r2d2

It's interesting to speculate what kind of schedule CZ would have on HEL - CAN A 19.00 arrival in CAN would be a daytime flight eastward, leaving HEL around 4.00. A horrible time for passengers originating from HEL and there would be no connections feeding the flight without a 5-hour layover in the night, so doesn't sound like it would attract enough passengers on their way to ANZ. Maybe CZ could make it work by departing Helsinki in the midnight wave. There would then be a long connection in CAN for passengers connecting to ANZ.

The current AY schedule would work well for connections in HEL, but in addition to the limitations with the connections to ANZ, the morning departure from CAN would also be difficult (but not impossible) for domestic connections from China.

Those are not real issues if there is a business case. AY has still multiple A350's on order, Russia will happily grant more overflight rights if they get paid enough and friends of CZ would probably get the slots in CAN.

intuition

I'm wondering if CZ is to get subsidized landing fees in HEL by Finnavia? Would make a great case to forfeit AY metal and share the gains from cheaper flights!

As for connections:
Midnight departure from HEL would put the route on par with HKG route, which currently is the main option for HEL-ANZ. It would be interesting if one could find slots offering a different schedule via CAN, but I do see the problem.


Now, the CZ way of handling bad connections is just to put people in hotels for free. I've enjoyed some nice STPC with them on onvernight connections. Probably not a service Finnair will foot the bill for, but for a CZ coded flight with overnight international connection in CAN there will be a 5* room waiting for you.

Same will probably go for a CZ customer coming from domestic and connecting to CZ/AY to HEL, so overnight connection on that end may actually not be that big of a problem.

ffay005

Is it still so that each new route gets reduced landing fees for 6 months? Used to be, that's why Air Baltic tried all sorts of crazy routings to upcountry airports in Finland.

CZ can probably operate HEL-CAN more cost-effectively than AY anyway.

However, I wouldn't be so sure that the Australian codeshares are really that important for AY. Yes, there's some demand from Finland to Australia, but probably not significantly. For everyone else, a trip dowunder via HEL requires two connections. This means that AY loses their biggest advantage (as far as well-paying customers are concerned): one-stop connections between secondary cities. If you want to fly from Continental Europe to Australia, chances are your airport offers flights to BKK, HKG, SIN, DOH or DXB, and from these airports you can continue nonstop to several Australian cities. Why fly via HEL and CAN?

Im a new user

There is apparently a transition period for leaving Skyteam (see here) during which some Skyteam benefits still apply. Maybe there are restrictions on how close CZ may get to Oneworld during that period.

r2d2

The big question is that would the HEL-CAN flight get enough passengers originating from HEL so that it wouldn't have to rely on connections in HEL. I'd say there's no way for the flight to be viable without connections within Europe. This leaves then only two options, either the big afternoon wave or the midnight departure/morning arrival wave (or a combination of them, e.g. afternoon arrival and midnight departure). Starting from the summer schedule, HKG is served with two dailies from HEL, so CAN can't have a better slot than HKG. Flying through CAN would have to compete with price.

In this scenario there probably wouldn't be many passengers traveling on AY code. AY would end up losing in this co-operation.