EU adopts electronic travel authorizations
Sep 11, 2018, 8:48 am
#32
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Yes that is correct. Having an ESTA does not guarantee you entry just that you are allowed on the flight so you can present yourself to an immigration official who will decide
Sep 12, 2018, 2:36 am
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The EU (or, to be correct, certain Governments of EU) indeed wants to stop certain people from entering the EU. In their vast majority (if not all of them) these unwelcome individuals will have nothing to do with the new ETIAS, they've been obliged to have a visa for a long time and will still be for the foreseeable future. Which, of course does not mean that they nevertheless manage to enter the EU, much the same way that neither visa nor ESTA managed to reduce illegal immigration to the US. So, the ETIAs is certainly not meant to be a European version of... the wall 
wall.
wall. This kind of thing by the Schengen countries is — along with APIS type requirements —meant to catch and prevent such repeated use of such documents to travel to and enter the Schengen area, but there are a lot of ways to get around the attempts to “lock down the hatches”.
Sep 12, 2018, 2:41 am
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Some EU dual-citizens will be hit by the ETIAS and its fee; for example, EU dual-citizens who would otherwise travel to the Schengen area with a non-European passport.
Sep 12, 2018, 2:47 am
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No they don't Airlines don't know my ESTA number. There is no field in APIS to enter it for example.
Airlines transmit the passport number to the US (along with other demographic data) and they get sent back a marker that shows them you have an ESTA which then along with the passport check generates the 'docs ok' on the boarding pass.
Airlines transmit the passport number to the US (along with other demographic data) and they get sent back a marker that shows them you have an ESTA which then along with the passport check generates the 'docs ok' on the boarding pass.
Sep 12, 2018, 2:53 am
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Sep 12, 2018, 6:29 am
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The above quoted sentence won’t be true in practice. Lots of EU dual-citizens have a valid non-European passport but a current national ID card, the latter of which isn’t broadly allowed for use to fly to the EU/Schengen countries from beyond Europe/EU/Schengen lands. This will remain the situation even after ETIAS goes live, and the chances of such people having to pay additional money to get to the EU/Schengen area will rise due to ETIAS cost.
The above quoted sentence also won’t be true in practice. How so? With potential ETIAS denial, such EU dual-citizens will face more problems getting to the EU/Schengen area after ETIAS implementation than before ETIAS.
The costs and hassles of an EU dual-citizen getting an EU passport or national ID card from beyond Europe is not generally zero. Take for example the hassles and costs a Swedish-US dual-citizen in Idaho with a current US passport may face in getting a replacement Swedish passport or Swedish national ID card while in the US. Without ETIAS, it’s pretty easy for such person to fly to Scandinavia and get in without seeking an ETIAS or paying an ETIAS fee or any heightened overseas application costs. With the ETIAS regime, there could be hassles, financial costs and even “deny transport” sort of feedback to the carriers for a declined/revoked/missing ETIAS approval.
Originally Posted by Ditto
Nothing stopping them from getting their EU ID/Passport in order to use that for entering Schengen in the rare event that their ETIAS application will be denied
The costs and hassles of an EU dual-citizen getting an EU passport or national ID card from beyond Europe is not generally zero. Take for example the hassles and costs a Swedish-US dual-citizen in Idaho with a current US passport may face in getting a replacement Swedish passport or Swedish national ID card while in the US. Without ETIAS, it’s pretty easy for such person to fly to Scandinavia and get in without seeking an ETIAS or paying an ETIAS fee or any heightened overseas application costs. With the ETIAS regime, there could be hassles, financial costs and even “deny transport” sort of feedback to the carriers for a declined/revoked/missing ETIAS approval.
Sep 12, 2018, 7:55 am
#38
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The above quoted sentence won’t be true in practice. Lots of EU dual-citizens have a valid non-European passport but a current national ID card, the latter of which isn’t broadly allowed for use to fly to the EU/Schengen countries from beyond Europe/EU/Schengen lands. This will remain the situation even after ETIAS goes live, and the chances of such people having to pay additional money to get to the EU/Schengen area will rise due to ETIAS cost.
Having a valid non-EU passport which would allow you to enter/exist whichever non-EU country you are in, together with an EU ID card that will allow you to enter Schengen is sufficient enough
The above quoted sentence also won’t be true in practice. How so? With potential ETIAS denial, such EU dual-citizens will face more problems getting to the EU/Schengen area after ETIAS implementation than before ETIAS.
The costs and hassles of an EU dual-citizen getting an EU passport or national ID card from beyond Europe is not generally zero. Take for example the hassles and costs a Swedish-US dual-citizen in Idaho with a current US passport may face in getting a replacement Swedish passport or Swedish national ID card while in the US. Without ETIAS, it’s pretty easy for such person to fly to Scandinavia and get in without seeking an ETIAS or paying an ETIAS fee or any heightened overseas application costs. With the ETIAS regime, there could be hassles, financial costs and even “deny transport” sort of feedback to the carriers for a declined/revoked/missing ETIAS approval.
The costs and hassles of an EU dual-citizen getting an EU passport or national ID card from beyond Europe is not generally zero. Take for example the hassles and costs a Swedish-US dual-citizen in Idaho with a current US passport may face in getting a replacement Swedish passport or Swedish national ID card while in the US. Without ETIAS, it’s pretty easy for such person to fly to Scandinavia and get in without seeking an ETIAS or paying an ETIAS fee or any heightened overseas application costs. With the ETIAS regime, there could be hassles, financial costs and even “deny transport” sort of feedback to the carriers for a declined/revoked/missing ETIAS approval.
I don't know the practicalities of "freedom of movement" for EU dual-citizens who are unable to prove they are actually EU citizens...
Sep 12, 2018, 8:57 am
#39
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The costs and hassles of an EU dual-citizen getting an EU passport or national ID card from beyond Europe is not generally zero. Take for example the hassles and costs a Swedish-US dual-citizen in Idaho with a current US passport may face in getting a replacement Swedish passport or Swedish national ID card while in the US. Without ETIAS, it’s pretty easy for such person to fly to Scandinavia and get in without seeking an ETIAS or paying an ETIAS fee or any heightened overseas application costs. With the ETIAS regime, there could be hassles, financial costs and even “deny transport” sort of feedback to the carriers for a declined/revoked/missing ETIAS approval.
1) the individual concerned is a national of an EU Member State;
2) the individual concerned is also a national of a non-EU third country;
3) that third country is not a country the nationals of which are required to obtain a visa before travel to the EU;
4) the individual concerned has a passport from that third country;
5) the individual concerned does not have a passport from the EU Member state of which he is a national;
6) the individual concerned does not have another document, such as an ID card, from the EU Member State of which he is a national which is usable as a valid travel document;
7) the individual concerned does not reside in the EU Member State of which he is a national but resides instead in a third country (of which he or she may or may not be a national);
8) the individual concerned resides in a remote location in that third country, from where applying from an appropriate travel document from the EU Member State of which he is a national is especially burdensome.
That is a lot of conditions to fulfill to fall within your hypothesis. In your estimation, what fraction of the flying population is likely to fulfill those conditions? 0.000001% perhaps? Or am I massively under-estimating this by several orders of magnitude and it is, in fact, much closer to a whopping 0.0001%?
Besides, the "inconvenience" that your US-Swedish dual national resideing in Idaho suffers is no greater that the inconvenience that a Swede single national resideing in Idaho would suffer. It does not strike me as abnormal that someone who wants to invoke travel privileges related to his or her nationality be expected to be in a position to establish his entitlement to those privileges.
Sep 12, 2018, 12:05 pm
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OK, let us unpack this and consider how significant and widespread the situation you envisage is likely to be. To fall within your parameters, it seems to me that the following must be fulfilled:
1) the individual concerned is a national of an EU Member State;
2) the individual concerned is also a national of a non-EU third country;
3) that third country is not a country the nationals of which are required to obtain a visa before travel to the EU;
4) the individual concerned has a passport from that third country;
5) the individual concerned does not have a passport from the EU Member state of which he is a national;
6) the individual concerned does not have another document, such as an ID card, from the EU Member State of which he is a national which is usable as a valid travel document;
7) the individual concerned does not reside in the EU Member State of which he is a national but resides instead in a third country (of which he or she may or may not be a national);
8) the individual concerned resides in a remote location in that third country, from where applying from an appropriate travel document from the EU Member State of which he is a national is especially burdensome.
That is a lot of conditions to fulfill to fall within your hypothesis. In your estimation, what fraction of the flying population is likely to fulfill those conditions? 0.000001% perhaps? Or am I massively under-estimating this by several orders of magnitude and it is, in fact, much closer to a whopping 0.0001%?
Besides, the "inconvenience" that your US-Swedish dual national resideing in Idaho suffers is no greater that the inconvenience that a Swede single national resideing in Idaho would suffer. It does not strike me as abnormal that someone who wants to invoke travel privileges related to his or her nationality be expected to be in a position to establish his entitlement to those privileges.
1) the individual concerned is a national of an EU Member State;
2) the individual concerned is also a national of a non-EU third country;
3) that third country is not a country the nationals of which are required to obtain a visa before travel to the EU;
4) the individual concerned has a passport from that third country;
5) the individual concerned does not have a passport from the EU Member state of which he is a national;
6) the individual concerned does not have another document, such as an ID card, from the EU Member State of which he is a national which is usable as a valid travel document;
7) the individual concerned does not reside in the EU Member State of which he is a national but resides instead in a third country (of which he or she may or may not be a national);
8) the individual concerned resides in a remote location in that third country, from where applying from an appropriate travel document from the EU Member State of which he is a national is especially burdensome.
That is a lot of conditions to fulfill to fall within your hypothesis. In your estimation, what fraction of the flying population is likely to fulfill those conditions? 0.000001% perhaps? Or am I massively under-estimating this by several orders of magnitude and it is, in fact, much closer to a whopping 0.0001%?
Besides, the "inconvenience" that your US-Swedish dual national resideing in Idaho suffers is no greater that the inconvenience that a Swede single national resideing in Idaho would suffer. It does not strike me as abnormal that someone who wants to invoke travel privileges related to his or her nationality be expected to be in a position to establish his entitlement to those privileges.
The fact is that ETIAS will cause some inconvenience and additional costs for some EU citizens traveling to the Schengen area. And some EU dual-citizens will be subject to having to pay for (and to get) an approved ETIAS as the fastest and cheapest way to still make a trip to the Schengen area when the booked trip would otherwise not be allowed due to not having a currently valid EU/Schengen country passport.
The proportion of currently valid EU/Schengen country passports that will be lost/stolen/damaged or expire in any given year is much higher than .0001%. While only a small proportion of such EU/Schengen country citizens will be dual-citizens of a non-European country and have a situation of not having a valid EU passport, it will be a daily situation that some EU citizens will be hassled by ETIAS in small or big ways.
ETIAS will further restrict the freedom of movement of some people, including of some EU citizens.
Last edited by GUWonder; Sep 12, 2018 at 12:11 pm
Sep 12, 2018, 12:26 pm
#41
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Having a valid non-EU passport which would allow you to enter/exist whichever non-EU country you are in, together with an EU ID card that will allow you to enter Schengen is sufficient enough
How is that different to them flying all the way just to present their US passport and then being denied entry since it's flagged for some reason or the other?
I don't know the practicalities of "freedom of movement" for EU dual-citizens who are unable to prove they are actually EU citizens...
How is that different to them flying all the way just to present their US passport and then being denied entry since it's flagged for some reason or the other?
I don't know the practicalities of "freedom of movement" for EU dual-citizens who are unable to prove they are actually EU citizens...
persons to a country of citizenship despite such persons being admissible as citizens of the country to which they are traveling.
Sep 12, 2018, 12:57 pm
#42
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The proportion of currently valid EU/Schengen country passports that will be lost/stolen/damaged or expire in any given year is much higher than .0001%. While only a small proportion of such EU/Schengen country citizens will be dual-citizens of a non-European country and have a situation of not having a valid EU passport, it will be a daily situation that some EU citizens will be hassled by ETIAS in small or big ways.
The only way the dual EU-third country citizens concerned are being "hassled" here is in being asked to establish their entitlement to travel qua EU citizens in exactly the same way as any other EU citizens OR establish their entitlement to travel qua citizens of the relevant third country in exactly the same way as any citizen of that third country.
Those EU citizens are not being hassled by "ETIAS". They are being hassled by being required to have a document establishing their entitlement to travel qua EU citizens.
Saying that "some EU citizens will be hassled in small or big ways by ETIAS" is tantamount to saying that "some EU citizens will be hassled in small or big ways by the requirement of Chinese citizens to have a Schengen visa to visit the European Union".
This is, to say the least, a rather idiosyncratic way of portraying the situation, which I would personally regard as rather loaded and misleading.
Secondly, even if it is a "daily" occurrence, that does not stop it being a microscopic proportion of the flying public and none of them are denied a right to travel. Talking of restriction on the free movement"of Union citizens here is hyperbole. You might as well .say that not giving more subsidies to international travel is a restriction on the free movement of Union citizens while you are at it.
Sep 12, 2018, 3:13 pm
#43
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There is a distinction between (a) being able to travel to a given place and (b) being admissible to the given place. With or without valid documents to travel, a citizen of an EU member state country is admissible to the country of citizenship. ETIAS will inhibit the freedom of movement of some
persons to a country of citizenship despite such persons being admissible as citizens of the country to which they are traveling.
persons to a country of citizenship despite such persons being admissible as citizens of the country to which they are traveling.
As I said I don't know the practicalities of what happens if someone show up in the EU border presenting a 3rd country passport, being denied access and then all of a sudden claiming that he is an EU citizen but have no valid travel document to prove it, but I can hardly imagine it being a pleasant experience.
Sep 12, 2018, 3:45 pm
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For all practical reasons, not being able to travel is usually the better outcome than travelling and being refused entry.
As I said I don't know the practicalities of what happens if someone show up in the EU border presenting a 3rd country passport, being denied access and then all of a sudden claiming that he is an EU citizen but have no valid travel document to prove it, but I can hardly imagine it being a pleasant experience.
As I said I don't know the practicalities of what happens if someone show up in the EU border presenting a 3rd country passport, being denied access and then all of a sudden claiming that he is an EU citizen but have no valid travel document to prove it, but I can hardly imagine it being a pleasant experience.
The example I used earlier is informed based on experience where it generally hasn’t been unpleasant experiences. To validate identity and citizenship in Sweden of Swedish citizens at Swedish ports of entry doesn’t need or require a currently valid national ID/passport in hand. Delay of access at port of entry is not the same thing as being denied access to the country at port of entry; and the former is generally better than the latter.
Denial of transport to port of entry is an objective of an ETIAS type regime. Denial of entry at the port of entry of the country of citizenship is something ETIAS can’t do directly to EU/Schengen country citizens (nor to some others) since refusal runs against the body law applicable to governments.
Last edited by GUWonder; Sep 12, 2018 at 3:52 pm
Sep 12, 2018, 4:00 pm
#45
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"hassled" in a heavily loaded word. Under your use of "hassle". immigration officers across the world are everyday "hassling" millions of people by asking them for a valid passport to be allowed to cross a border. Car drivers are routinely "hassled" in being asked to have obtained a driving licence to be allowed to drive their cars on the road. Millions of medical students have been "hassled" by being required to pass exams before being allowed to practice as doctors, etc...
The only way the dual EU-third country citizens concerned are being "hassled" here is in being asked to establish their entitlement to travel qua EU citizens in exactly the same way as any other EU citizens OR establish their entitlement to travel qua citizens of the relevant third country in exactly the same way as any citizen of that third country.
Those EU citizens are not being hassled by "ETIAS". They are being hassled by being required to have a document establishing their entitlement to travel qua EU citizens.
Saying that "some EU citizens will be hassled in small or big ways by ETIAS" is tantamount to saying that "some EU citizens will be hassled in small or big ways by the requirement of Chinese citizens to have a Schengen visa to visit the European Union".
This is, to say the least, a rather idiosyncratic way of portraying the situation, which I would personally regard as rather loaded and misleading.
Secondly, even if it is a "daily" occurrence, that does not stop it being a microscopic proportion of the flying public and none of them are denied a right to travel. Talking of restriction on the free movement"of Union citizens here is hyperbole. You might as well .say that not giving more subsidies to international travel is a restriction on the free movement of Union citizens while you are at it.
The only way the dual EU-third country citizens concerned are being "hassled" here is in being asked to establish their entitlement to travel qua EU citizens in exactly the same way as any other EU citizens OR establish their entitlement to travel qua citizens of the relevant third country in exactly the same way as any citizen of that third country.
Those EU citizens are not being hassled by "ETIAS". They are being hassled by being required to have a document establishing their entitlement to travel qua EU citizens.
Saying that "some EU citizens will be hassled in small or big ways by ETIAS" is tantamount to saying that "some EU citizens will be hassled in small or big ways by the requirement of Chinese citizens to have a Schengen visa to visit the European Union".
This is, to say the least, a rather idiosyncratic way of portraying the situation, which I would personally regard as rather loaded and misleading.
Secondly, even if it is a "daily" occurrence, that does not stop it being a microscopic proportion of the flying public and none of them are denied a right to travel. Talking of restriction on the free movement"of Union citizens here is hyperbole. You might as well .say that not giving more subsidies to international travel is a restriction on the free movement of Union citizens while you are at it.
Firstly, denial of travel due to ETIAS will be a daily occurrence. And it will be that against some EU citizens with non-European passports issued by countries whose citizens are to be subject to the ETIAS regime.
Last edited by GUWonder; Sep 12, 2018 at 4:06 pm