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Will the 777X be another 737MAX?

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Old Apr 7, 2019 | 9:48 pm
  #16  
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Originally Posted by homer3152
Whatever software fix they come up with: it is not going to fix the fundamental structural instability problem of the 737 max..this is going to remain with this aircraft as long as its design is not changed...this will definitely not be resolved in a year or two. I am not an expert..but i am not aware of any other aircraft which has comparable structural faults causing instabilities which require to be addressed by a counterbalancing software..and I am not convinced by the FBW examples given above..there is a difference between an aeronautical instability and a design which systematically pushes this instability to the limit. Id rather fly in an aircraft which just flies with the help of a skilled pilot. AFAIC, I will totally avoid the max in the future..and my trust in Boeing and the FAA is fundamentally disturbed..so I personally will give it quite some time before boarding a 777X.
I think your use of 'structural faults causing instabilities' is inaccurate. There is nothing inherently wrong with the structure as evidenced by the many MAX flights that did not crash. The issue is with a part of a system. It might interest you to know that anhedral wings are designed as they are for high wing aircraft precisely to "destabilize" the aircraft and make them more maneuverable. [sidebar: I really enjoyed many of your videos]

Originally Posted by skywardhunter
This is all a bit misleading, the software that is at issue, MCAS, is not permanently in use, it addresses a very specific scenario, based on load speed, temperature and most importantly angle of attack.
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Old Apr 8, 2019 | 12:56 am
  #17  
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Originally Posted by skywardhunter
This is all a bit misleading, the software that is at issue, MCAS, is not permanently in use, it addresses a very specific scenario, based on load speed, temperature and most importantly angle of attack.
That's true, but it does seem that it's possible to get the B737MAX into a completely non-recoverable situation - even without MCAS.

From what I've read, after the initial MCAS triggered, the pilots did the right thing. However, they were then in the situation where they had to pull with all their strength so that the elevator counteracted the nose down attitude of the horizontal stabiliser. Because of the forces on the HS, they couldn't then manually trim it back. They were only 1000 feet above the ground, and the speed was rising all the time - if they'd reduced the power, that would have also pushed the nose down further.

So, at this point, there was nothing they could really do - and MCAS was disabled. They took a chance and reactivated the electronic trim (which re-activated MCAS). This worked for a short time, but then MCAS kicked in again - and game over.
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Old Apr 8, 2019 | 3:28 am
  #18  
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Boeing says for 777: less...stability [for] fuel efficiency

Was Boeing just putting 777 type design into the 737 MAX? And if the 777x engines are larger & placed higher & more forward than the prior 777s, does 777x have even less "longitudinal stability" ?

https://www.boeing.com/commercial/ae...y/fo01txt.html

2 Flight Control Computers and Stability Augmentation
The trend in the design of modern airplanes is to have less static longitudinal stability--frequently referred to as relaxed static stability (RSS)--to capture the benefit of improved fuel efficiency. Simply stated, some airplanes are now designed to be aerodynamically efficient, and stability is augmented electronically so that stick force gradients will meet certification requirements. Many methods exist for augmenting stability. For example, the Boeing 777 and MD-11 use flight control computers that adjust the elevator actuator positions to give the appearance of more longitudinal stability than the airplane actually has. In other words, computers absorb the extra workload caused by flying with RSS.

Augmented stability provides better cruise performance with no increase in workload and no adverse effects from flying at an aft CG. This technology also allows for a smaller tail size, which further reduces drag and weight. However, FAR Part 25 requires that handling qualities remain adequate for continued safe flight and landing following an augmentation system failure. Therefore, a practical limit exists for how far aft the CG can go.

The Boeing 777 uses redundant digital flight control computers to provide positive (static longitudinal) stability and enhances that stability with airspeed feedback. The MD-11 uses computers to provide neutral speed stability. In other words, the CG of the MD-11 appears to be at the neutral point. The MD-11 uses elevator deflection to hold attitude at any speed within the normal flight envelope, then trims the stabilizer. This is known as an "attitude hold" system.

Last edited by BF263533; Apr 8, 2019 at 3:37 am
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Old Apr 8, 2019 | 4:22 am
  #19  
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Folks, as interesting as this discussion may be, it has nothing to do with Emirates or their fleet. I will let it run but if it remains off topic will have to be moved.
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Old Apr 8, 2019 | 4:32 am
  #20  
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Emirates has like 150 of the 777X on order.

Originally Posted by Zol
Folks, as interesting as this discussion may be, it has nothing to do with Emirates or their fleet. I will let it run but if it remains off topic will have to be moved.
Emirates has like 150 of the 777X on order.

https://www.boeing.com/commercial/cu...150-777xs.page


Emirates

Emirates is currently the world's largest operator of the 777 and the only airline that operates all the variants of this aircraft. As Emirates continues to expand its global network, the 777 has played a central role as the carrier for its non-stop, long haul routes. In March 2012, Emirates received the 1000th 777 to roll out of Everett — the airline also launched its non-stop flight from Dubai to Seattle at the same time.

On 17 November, the first day of the 2013 Dubai Air Show, Emirates announced an order for 150 777Xs, in the process breaking a record for the single largest order for a new airplane from Emirates and the single largest airplane order ever in the world.

Emirates’s news on 777X

Boeing applied 777 type "augumentation" practices to the 737 MAX, so the 737MAX is a test base for the 777X.

Last edited by BF263533; Apr 8, 2019 at 4:50 am Reason: 777 augmentation tested by 737 MAX
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Old Apr 8, 2019 | 5:52 am
  #21  
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Boeing wouldn't want to lose Emirates as a customer for the reasons you pointed out. They would do anything to ensure Emirates is happy and if that means sending an entire team of experts down to Dubai to ensure DCAA is completely satisfied, so be it. And DCAA/EK/Dubai is all about reputation - and in this case it's definitely a good thing since they wouldn't want to be in the news for the wrong reasons.

Besides, after this - every "new" Boeing metal tube is going to be in the limelight so they themselves need to be absolutely sure there isn't any handshake certification. We are definitely going to see an improvement in Boeing's & FAA's certification process, unfortunately 350 people had to die for it.
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Old Apr 8, 2019 | 10:01 pm
  #22  
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"The Boeing 777-X's Folding Wings, Are They Safe?"

"Given the questions raised by Boeing's design decisions on its 737 Max aircraft, will the folding wing tips on its new 777-X line of planes be safe?"

https://interestingengineering.com/t...-are-they-safe
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