Now exhausted Emirates Airlines pilots tell RT of overwork
Apr 8, 2016, 6:00 am
#31
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,095
Apr 11, 2016, 12:06 am
#32
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Dubai / NYC
Programs: EK-IO, UA-1K2MM, ETIHAD-GOLD, SPG-PLAT LIFETIME, JUMEIRAH SERIUS GOLD
Posts: 5,220
A lot of bad stuff is appropiatley floating to the top as a result of Fly Dubai accident. The captain's schedule prior to the accident was quite simply dangerous. Emirates pilots face the same schedules with the added threat of long haul flying related fatigue. Have many friends flying at EK. Everyone of them is looking to get out, because the conditions laid out in the RT article are too often reality.
Btw it is not just Putin that is on this glaring disregard for safety. Expect a WSJ article in the coming days.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35855678
Btw it is not just Putin that is on this glaring disregard for safety. Expect a WSJ article in the coming days.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35855678
Apr 11, 2016, 2:41 am
#33
Ambassador: Emirates Airlines
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 18,613
You state you"Have many friends flying at EK. Everyone of them is looking to get out,". No offense but based on that statement I doubt you know "many" EK pilots. Ive lived here (In Dubai) going on 17 years and know or have known quite a number of current or former EK crews. While some are not happy, IMO they are the minority and even most of them don't say safety is the reason they look to leave. EK Piots do not have the same schedule as Fly Dubai's pilots, not even close - Fly Dubai has schedules unfortunately somewhat similar to Americas regional airlines while EK pilots have similar schedules to Americas long haul legacy pilots. Its simply not possible for them to have schedules similar to each other. EK is mostly a medium and long haul carrier and the crews get the industry standard 24-36 hour layovers. EK has its share of labor related problems but safety is not one of them
The latest is that EK are moving a lot of crew to new villas near Meydan (flight crew are provided with free villas while they work in Dubai). This means they have to go out in a car or taxi to a super market. Diddums.
They also have to work 90 hours a month with unsociable hours. This leaves them exhausted apparently.
Apr 11, 2016, 12:42 pm
#34
Join Date: Feb 2016
Programs: MM, EK, HH, etc.
Posts: 381
Each country's aviation authority has its rules, so I assume pilots are subject to such flight crew duty rules at the departure and destination points. So as to get as much objectivity as possible in this thread, would it not be best to (1) establish the salient rules; (2) compare such rules against EK policy (which would need to match or exceed the official rules) and the rules/policies of leading countries and carriers; 3) match EK crew complaints against those rules; and (4) try and analyze whether there is a lack of verification of the rules by the authorities? I have to admit I have no idea how to compile most of this ;-) However, that would allow the EK rules to be put into perspective with leading Western standards and carriers and thus establish how serious/valid the EK crew complaints are and whether there may be a lack of verification on the part of the authorities.
Last edited by Wtravel; Apr 11, 2016 at 12:42 pm Reason: Typo
Apr 11, 2016, 6:31 pm
#35
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 430
Airlines follow duty limit rules of their own regulator not rules of regulator at destination.
FAA rules are the best but GCAA follows EU.OPS which are reasonable if you have independent regulator, unions and curfews at some airports.
But when you have a regulators in kahoots with airline, 24x7 airport operating to allover the world without any employee representation (not a union) it creates a unique situation.
Here is a sample of an airline following FAA rules for a ULR
-Prior to flight
36hr (2 local nights minimum) rest
-Flight
16hr flight duty (with minimum rest on duty)
-At remote station
36-48 hr (2 local nights minimum) rest at remote station
-Return flight
16hr flight duty on return journey (with minimum rest on duty)
-At base after the trip
72 hr (3 local nights minimum) rest at base
Which looks like too much rest on trip but it is based on decades on scientific studies.
So for some to say we will follow same as others is somewhat disingenuous.
FAA rules are the best but GCAA follows EU.OPS which are reasonable if you have independent regulator, unions and curfews at some airports.
But when you have a regulators in kahoots with airline, 24x7 airport operating to allover the world without any employee representation (not a union) it creates a unique situation.
Here is a sample of an airline following FAA rules for a ULR
-Prior to flight
36hr (2 local nights minimum) rest
-Flight
16hr flight duty (with minimum rest on duty)
-At remote station
36-48 hr (2 local nights minimum) rest at remote station
-Return flight
16hr flight duty on return journey (with minimum rest on duty)
-At base after the trip
72 hr (3 local nights minimum) rest at base
Which looks like too much rest on trip but it is based on decades on scientific studies.
So for some to say we will follow same as others is somewhat disingenuous.
Apr 13, 2016, 12:54 am
#36
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: A metal nomad
Programs: Mucci des Delices Exotiques,Order of the Platinum Hairbrush,Her Royal Diamond
Posts: 23,728
If people on here aren't comfortable with EK, then they have a choice to fly any other airline, including the Russian ones.
Crew always complain, no matter what airline. Just look at other airlines on this forum and see how many complain.
Besides, when they signed on the dotted employment line, they clearly knew what was expected of them, if they weren't comfortable with that, they shouldn't have signed. And if along the way the airline changed, then they could find a way to get out of their contracts.
But really, I don't think EK would want their crew to be fatigued. One accident and there goes their reputation. @:-)
Crew always complain, no matter what airline. Just look at other airlines on this forum and see how many complain.
Besides, when they signed on the dotted employment line, they clearly knew what was expected of them, if they weren't comfortable with that, they shouldn't have signed. And if along the way the airline changed, then they could find a way to get out of their contracts.
But really, I don't think EK would want their crew to be fatigued. One accident and there goes their reputation. @:-)
Apr 13, 2016, 2:49 am
#37
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Economy, mostly :(
Programs: Skywards Gold
Posts: 7,801
Airlines follow duty limit rules of their own regulator not rules of regulator at destination.
FAA rules are the best but GCAA follows EU.OPS which are reasonable if you have independent regulator, unions and curfews at some airports.
But when you have a regulators in kahoots with airline, 24x7 airport operating to allover the world without any employee representation (not a union) it creates a unique situation.
Here is a sample of an airline following FAA rules for a ULR
-Prior to flight
36hr (2 local nights minimum) rest
-Flight
16hr flight duty (with minimum rest on duty)
-At remote station
36-48 hr (2 local nights minimum) rest at remote station
-Return flight
16hr flight duty on return journey (with minimum rest on duty)
-At base after the trip
72 hr (3 local nights minimum) rest at base
Which looks like too much rest on trip but it is based on decades on scientific studies.
So for some to say we will follow same as others is somewhat disingenuous.
FAA rules are the best but GCAA follows EU.OPS which are reasonable if you have independent regulator, unions and curfews at some airports.
But when you have a regulators in kahoots with airline, 24x7 airport operating to allover the world without any employee representation (not a union) it creates a unique situation.
Here is a sample of an airline following FAA rules for a ULR
-Prior to flight
36hr (2 local nights minimum) rest
-Flight
16hr flight duty (with minimum rest on duty)
-At remote station
36-48 hr (2 local nights minimum) rest at remote station
-Return flight
16hr flight duty on return journey (with minimum rest on duty)
-At base after the trip
72 hr (3 local nights minimum) rest at base
Which looks like too much rest on trip but it is based on decades on scientific studies.
So for some to say we will follow same as others is somewhat disingenuous.
As for the crew villa issue, I've been to a villa in one of the EK flight crew areas, one of the new ones. Might've been the one mentioned. And they're very nice houses and most flight crew have cars, however flight crew may also rent or buy their own home and receive a housing allowance for this from the company, they're not forced to say in EK accommodation.
90hrs is the Norm and is limited by regulators. My relative (with EK >10yrs) has told me the issue lies with the regulators having unreasonable limits more so than with the airlines. A typical ULR pilot will do around 4 trips a month, return. 2 ULR, e.g. SFO, LAX, BNE, SYD, etc, which is around 60hrs, and 2 medium range like LHR, MAN, JNB, PEK, BKK, which I'll gets the remaining 30 (7h each way x 2). Obviously depends on how the pilot bids on his routes and seniority etc, but I'd say that's the type of roster more or less a lot follow. Probably you'll find 80% of EK pilots doing 3-5 return trips a month,and they usually have one month a year on reserve with no pre-assigned flights.
EK also has an acclimatisation period depending on how many time zones away a pilot has been, based on which they determine how long before a flight the pilot just be in DXB, primarily applicable to leave etc.
Apr 13, 2016, 5:41 am
#38
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 430
skywardhunter
There are probably hundreds of pilots disagree with you.
Regulator = Airline, hence Regulator issue = Airline issue
Other airline pilots just do two such ULRs in a month, nothing else, no two more medium hauls, no regional turnarounds.
EK doesn't have enough pilots to start with for existing routes (7 sets vs required 10-11 sets), there is high attrition rate, not able to attract experienced pilots and it keep starting new routes for which fanboys and travel agents are cheering. Circumstantial evidence suggests there is a problem.
Every issue with this company is like there is billowing smoke but (social media) workers are directing people saying "there is nothing here to see, move along"
Playing with books is vastly different from playing with safety.
There are probably hundreds of pilots disagree with you.
Regulator = Airline, hence Regulator issue = Airline issue
Other airline pilots just do two such ULRs in a month, nothing else, no two more medium hauls, no regional turnarounds.
EK doesn't have enough pilots to start with for existing routes (7 sets vs required 10-11 sets), there is high attrition rate, not able to attract experienced pilots and it keep starting new routes for which fanboys and travel agents are cheering. Circumstantial evidence suggests there is a problem.
Every issue with this company is like there is billowing smoke but (social media) workers are directing people saying "there is nothing here to see, move along"
Playing with books is vastly different from playing with safety.