Emirates over rated?
Oct 10, 2015, 4:08 am
#166
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9,307
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/other...-airlines-471/
Oct 10, 2015, 4:39 am
#167
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 6
Unfortunately this is not something that is confined to EK - every airline charges more from their hub because of a combination of a captive market (as you say, employers buy the direct, easy option) and that being based at the hub all (most!) flights are of course direct non-stops, which in the airline world attracts a premium.
To put it another way, EK offers a discount to travellers in order to make the extra distance and time more attractive. As airlines like to argue, and I have quite a lot of sympathy for this view - they are selling transport from A to B, not a series of connected segments. The total duration of the journey and connection hassle has a cost, which is compensated with through a discount to quicker journey possibilities.
This is only really an issue when people argue about dropped segments though - the point is rather incidental when talking about O&D flights from the hub!
This is less an EK thing, but more a hub captive thing, I think. Not to say I don't think EK gouge DXB residents, but then you get the same thing living in any major hub. After all, LHR-JFK on BA can cost 15k USD in F (non flexible but excellent timings), and that's only a 7hr flight! You can do a one stop in Europe for only 8k USD. There are infamous BA ex-EU fares which offer substantial discounts to the direct options.
To put it another way, EK offers a discount to travellers in order to make the extra distance and time more attractive. As airlines like to argue, and I have quite a lot of sympathy for this view - they are selling transport from A to B, not a series of connected segments. The total duration of the journey and connection hassle has a cost, which is compensated with through a discount to quicker journey possibilities.
This is only really an issue when people argue about dropped segments though - the point is rather incidental when talking about O&D flights from the hub!
This is less an EK thing, but more a hub captive thing, I think. Not to say I don't think EK gouge DXB residents, but then you get the same thing living in any major hub. After all, LHR-JFK on BA can cost 15k USD in F (non flexible but excellent timings), and that's only a 7hr flight! You can do a one stop in Europe for only 8k USD. There are infamous BA ex-EU fares which offer substantial discounts to the direct options.
Last year I went to the World cup in Rio. I paid over 1600 euro for a direct flight with Emirates, my father and brother paid 750 with KLM for a direct flight. That is more than double the price for 3 hours of extra flight time.
In general, when I was still living in The Netherlands, a direct return ticket from Amsterdam to USA/South America would be around 600-900 euro in economy class, with Emirates the average will be AT LEAST 1200-1500 euro. Even a direct flight to for instance Singapore/Bangkok/Tokyo will be competitive or maybe slightly cheaper with most European carriers with distance being almost being double.
Would be a nice survey, how much do the main international carriers charge on average per mile for direct long haul flight from their main hub? I would not be surprised if Emirates, Etihad and Qatar Airways battle together for gold, silver and bronze.
Last edited by Hugo1975; Oct 10, 2015 at 4:48 am
Oct 10, 2015, 5:09 am
#168
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 6
Got curious whether this would be applicable for all above mentioned regions and I ran a quick comparison between KLM and Emirates on direct flights in economy class, return ticket, all inbound/outbound on December 3rd/10th.
Dubai/Amsterdam: KLM 498 euro, Emirates 953 euro
Singapore: KLM 665 euro, Emirates 618 euro.
Tokyo: KLM 858 euro, Emirates 1058 euro.
New York: KLM 710 euro, Emirates 1264 euro
Rio de Janeiro: KLM 799 euro, Emirates 1815 euro
Houston: KLM 820 euro, Emirates 1465 euro.
Moskow: KLM 299 euro, Emirates 614 euro.
Cairo: KLM 368 euro, Emirates 674 euro.
It is pretty clear to me where Emirates stands with respect to competitive pricing, it is even worse than I thought.....
Did not compare Emirates to BA of Lufthanse but would be surprised if results would be significant different (I commuted 2 years between Amsterdam and London and flew mainly BA because of more competitive prices).
Dubai/Amsterdam: KLM 498 euro, Emirates 953 euro
Singapore: KLM 665 euro, Emirates 618 euro.
Tokyo: KLM 858 euro, Emirates 1058 euro.
New York: KLM 710 euro, Emirates 1264 euro
Rio de Janeiro: KLM 799 euro, Emirates 1815 euro
Houston: KLM 820 euro, Emirates 1465 euro.
Moskow: KLM 299 euro, Emirates 614 euro.
Cairo: KLM 368 euro, Emirates 674 euro.
It is pretty clear to me where Emirates stands with respect to competitive pricing, it is even worse than I thought.....
Did not compare Emirates to BA of Lufthanse but would be surprised if results would be significant different (I commuted 2 years between Amsterdam and London and flew mainly BA because of more competitive prices).
Last edited by Hugo1975; Oct 10, 2015 at 5:23 am
Oct 10, 2015, 5:18 am
#169
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: MAN DXB ✈️
Programs: Skywards Gold
Posts: 6,831
Got curious whether this would be applicable for all above mentioned regions and I ran a quick comparison between KLM and Emirates on direct flights in economy class, all inbound/outbound on December 3rd/10th.
Singapore: KLM return 665 euro, Emirates 618 euro.
Tokyo: KLM 858 euro, Emirates 1058 euro.
New York: KLM 710 euro, Emirates 1264 euro
Rio de Janeiro: KLM 799 euro, Emirates 1815 euro
Moskow: KLM 299 euro, Emirates 614 euro.
Cairo: KLM 368 euro, Emirates 674 euro.
It is pretty clear to me where Emirates stands with respect to competitive pricing.....
Did not compare KLM to BA of Lufthanse but would be surprised if results would be significant different.
Singapore: KLM return 665 euro, Emirates 618 euro.
Tokyo: KLM 858 euro, Emirates 1058 euro.
New York: KLM 710 euro, Emirates 1264 euro
Rio de Janeiro: KLM 799 euro, Emirates 1815 euro
Moskow: KLM 299 euro, Emirates 614 euro.
Cairo: KLM 368 euro, Emirates 674 euro.
It is pretty clear to me where Emirates stands with respect to competitive pricing.....
Did not compare KLM to BA of Lufthanse but would be surprised if results would be significant different.
People in Dxb who are using EK to travel direct are earning a lot of tax free wedge or are being paid by the company to travel EK. Massive premium and money making from the ex Dxb flights. It often costs a thousand pounds to Manchester from Dubai whereas a cheap man Dxb can be £350.
Emirates market is India to USA via Dxb. Lots of uk fares are significantly cheaper than ba who will not be direct as most have to travel through t5.
Oct 10, 2015, 5:56 am
#170
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 5,454
Got curious whether this would be applicable for all above mentioned regions and I ran a quick comparison between KLM and Emirates on direct flights in economy class, return ticket, all inbound/outbound on December 3rd/10th.
Dubai/Amsterdam: KLM 498 euro, Emirates 953 euro
Singapore: KLM 665 euro, Emirates 618 euro.
Tokyo: KLM 858 euro, Emirates 1058 euro.
New York: KLM 710 euro, Emirates 1264 euro
Rio de Janeiro: KLM 799 euro, Emirates 1815 euro
Houston: KLM 820 euro, Emirates 1465 euro.
Moskow: KLM 299 euro, Emirates 614 euro.
Cairo: KLM 368 euro, Emirates 674 euro.
It is pretty clear to me where Emirates stands with respect to competitive pricing, it is even worse than I thought.....
Did not compare Emirates to BA of Lufthanse but would be surprised if results would be significant different (I commuted 2 years between Amsterdam and London and flew mainly BA because of more competitive prices).
Dubai/Amsterdam: KLM 498 euro, Emirates 953 euro
Singapore: KLM 665 euro, Emirates 618 euro.
Tokyo: KLM 858 euro, Emirates 1058 euro.
New York: KLM 710 euro, Emirates 1264 euro
Rio de Janeiro: KLM 799 euro, Emirates 1815 euro
Houston: KLM 820 euro, Emirates 1465 euro.
Moskow: KLM 299 euro, Emirates 614 euro.
Cairo: KLM 368 euro, Emirates 674 euro.
It is pretty clear to me where Emirates stands with respect to competitive pricing, it is even worse than I thought.....
Did not compare Emirates to BA of Lufthanse but would be surprised if results would be significant different (I commuted 2 years between Amsterdam and London and flew mainly BA because of more competitive prices).
I totally sympathise with the fact that DXB hub captives do pay significant sums but carriers take into account the local capacity to pay (and who is paying is an inextricably linked to that) as well as the route competition.
You raise a point about international market rates - how do you determine what that is when very often EK is the only carrier flying the route or their are maximum two carriers (e.g. AMS-KLM), especially as cost bases between operators vary.
I'm not sure your list of airfare can be entirely accurate on headline price as the routings and stage lengths are different for KL and EK and therefore the underlying cost bases are different. It would be more useful for a per mile cost comparison I think.
And then we haven't got into the issue of whether the carriers feel their product is intrinsically worth more or less (e.g does ICE command a price premium)
Oct 10, 2015, 6:33 am
#172
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: MAN DXB ✈️
Programs: Skywards Gold
Posts: 6,831
Oct 14, 2015, 6:37 pm
#173
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 220
EK for sure is a mass market product, grossly overated for service and product. I speak with considerable experience in flying F and J on several airlines to make that statement. My frame of reference is in international flights with SQ and CX.
EKs J tends to be very cramped, perhaps only slightly better than CX Premium Economy. EKs F is a copy of SQ's suites (plus the shower, of course). Examine the amenities closely and they are very cheap products (i.e., stationary, etc..) meant for that WOW!! factor. The gilded trims, bling Dollywood style lights are quite useless. Dinks cabinet - how much can you really consume during any flight - if you need something, you could always ask the FA. The space taken up by somewhat useless amenities is what you are paying for. I have verified that the FAs only get a few weeks training and then sent on the job - SQ/CX invest heavily into crew training for several months. Much else to be said will be critical ad nauseam...
In 2014, I took a flight LHR-SIN with a 2 hr transit stop at DXB. 1st segment in F and connecting to SIN in J. Family of 2A and 2 very young children. The A380 arrived and dropped everyone off at the tarmac, app noon time with searing heat. Hauled away by bus and dumped at the terminal. No one assisted us with guidance to our connecting flight despite repeated requests. We finally made the very long journey to another terminal. Denied access to the F lounge..!! (SQ/CX permits F if you arrived in F and connecting to a lower cabin). With barely 45 mons left, we prepared to board the connecting, all hot and sweaty. That was the last time I've ever flown EK - at least it was an expensed flight (and not my account..!).
Overall, ground staff were rude, hostile, unpleasant and unhelpful - this is Emirates for you..!!! Please do not believe those Discovery channel documentaries - they're pure Dollywood performances.
Another significant negative is their FF program - redemptions rates for premium cabins are more that twice that of SQ/CX.
Those who claim the merits of EKs premium cabin are those who really travel mostly by LCCs or cheap economy tickets or US carriers - they get very impressed with anything better that their usual mode of travel.
Never again, EK...!!
EKs J tends to be very cramped, perhaps only slightly better than CX Premium Economy. EKs F is a copy of SQ's suites (plus the shower, of course). Examine the amenities closely and they are very cheap products (i.e., stationary, etc..) meant for that WOW!! factor. The gilded trims, bling Dollywood style lights are quite useless. Dinks cabinet - how much can you really consume during any flight - if you need something, you could always ask the FA. The space taken up by somewhat useless amenities is what you are paying for. I have verified that the FAs only get a few weeks training and then sent on the job - SQ/CX invest heavily into crew training for several months. Much else to be said will be critical ad nauseam...
In 2014, I took a flight LHR-SIN with a 2 hr transit stop at DXB. 1st segment in F and connecting to SIN in J. Family of 2A and 2 very young children. The A380 arrived and dropped everyone off at the tarmac, app noon time with searing heat. Hauled away by bus and dumped at the terminal. No one assisted us with guidance to our connecting flight despite repeated requests. We finally made the very long journey to another terminal. Denied access to the F lounge..!! (SQ/CX permits F if you arrived in F and connecting to a lower cabin). With barely 45 mons left, we prepared to board the connecting, all hot and sweaty. That was the last time I've ever flown EK - at least it was an expensed flight (and not my account..!).
Overall, ground staff were rude, hostile, unpleasant and unhelpful - this is Emirates for you..!!! Please do not believe those Discovery channel documentaries - they're pure Dollywood performances.
Another significant negative is their FF program - redemptions rates for premium cabins are more that twice that of SQ/CX.
Those who claim the merits of EKs premium cabin are those who really travel mostly by LCCs or cheap economy tickets or US carriers - they get very impressed with anything better that their usual mode of travel.
Never again, EK...!!
As for the lounge itself, it's rather big and impersonal...almost like a huge hospital ward. The service personnel are all very nice and personable, what else could they be being basically Filipino slave labour, but at least the food is decent, the showers refreshing, and there is free WiFi and plenty of reading material. Cozy it certainly is not.
As for the planes and crew, meh. The A380 I found almost too big and actually preferred the F class on the Triple 7. The bring decor factor is just personal preference but a more clean and functional neutral tone and look like Singapore, Cathay, or Lufthansa is more to my taste. The shower is a gimmick, especially as all the lounges have them. The crews themselves are pleasant enough but nowhere near as polished as Sq or CX.
Last edited by OMGImInPattaya; Oct 14, 2015 at 9:05 pm Reason: Spelling
Oct 14, 2015, 6:56 pm
#174
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,624
If you can tell me which Premium Economy product has seating similar to EK business class on an A380 and which business class is offering closed suites , since I would be definitely interested in switching
I don't find the shower to be a gimmick, but a useful facility. If connecting, I could use a shower in a lounge if there is time whilst on board I have nothing else to do and nothing but time. On arrival at journey's destination, there is no lounge access entitlement, so an onboard shower is much better than the no shower option
I don't find the shower to be a gimmick, but a useful facility. If connecting, I could use a shower in a lounge if there is time whilst on board I have nothing else to do and nothing but time. On arrival at journey's destination, there is no lounge access entitlement, so an onboard shower is much better than the no shower option
Last edited by Dave Noble; Oct 14, 2015 at 7:03 pm
Oct 14, 2015, 8:51 pm
#175
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 220
I neglected to mention the C and F limo service, which is a nice perkperk, and worth us$ 75-150 per transfer. The outstation lounges are also quite nice and standardized so one knows what to expect. I found the food on my F flight to be mostly inedible, but that's to be expected with reheated cafeteria food (and not a problem when one prepares for this by getting stuffed in the lounges). EK's fares are usually quite competitive, at least from my location, Thailand, and the route network gets me anywhere I want to go, so for the money, it's not bad . However, I just wouldn't out EK in the same class as SQ, CA, or maybe even Lufthansa and Austrian (in business).
Oct 14, 2015, 9:01 pm
#176
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 220
If you can tell me which Premium Economy product has seating similar to EK business class on an A380 and which business class is offering closed suites , since I would be definitely interested in switching
I don't find the shower to be a gimmick, but a useful facility. If connecting, I could use a shower in a lounge if there is time whilst on board I have nothing else to do and nothing but time. On arrival at journey's destination, there is no lounge access entitlement, so an onboard shower is much better than the no shower option
I don't find the shower to be a gimmick, but a useful facility. If connecting, I could use a shower in a lounge if there is time whilst on board I have nothing else to do and nothing but time. On arrival at journey's destination, there is no lounge access entitlement, so an onboard shower is much better than the no shower option
Oct 14, 2015, 9:15 pm
#177
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,624
It's not the seating or the suites but the overall service, f&b, and ground experience I'm referring too. Basically, I would call EK's F a business class product that has a suites seating. I could see in a situation you describe the shower might be useful. To me, they're not necessary and apparently EK feels the same as future A380s won't have them.
As far as removal of showers - is that not in relation to those A380s that have no 1st class cabin and so no 1st class passenegrs to use them
Oct 14, 2015, 9:37 pm
#178
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 220
You might think that, but I cannot think of a business class product that is as good than EK's 1st class product , not can I think of any Premium Economy product that is as good as EK's business class
As far as removal of showers - is that not in relation to those A380s that have no 1st class cabin and so no 1st class passenegrs to use them
As far as removal of showers - is that not in relation to those A380s that have no 1st class cabin and so no 1st class passenegrs to use them
Oct 14, 2015, 9:50 pm
#179
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 220
You might think that, but I cannot think of a business class product that is as good than EK's 1st class product , not can I think of any Premium Economy product that is as good as EK's business class
As far as removal of showers - is that not in relation to those A380s that have no 1st class cabin and so no 1st class passenegrs to use them
As far as removal of showers - is that not in relation to those A380s that have no 1st class cabin and so no 1st class passenegrs to use them
For the price, EK First is acceptable...it's not premium but neither is the cost. It's business class with suites seating (which is nice). However, I would have some reservations taking EK business on a transcontinental or oceanic crossing.
Last edited by OMGImInPattaya; Oct 14, 2015 at 10:01 pm
Oct 14, 2015, 10:00 pm
#180
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,624
Just doing a random check; for a date in February r/t LHR-SYD cheapest offerings
BA : £5,857
TG : £5,857
EY : £5,878
EK : £6,751
QF : £6,746
SQ : £7,826
I have trouble identifying EK as being the cheapest there
Looking at the reverse
BA : $10,930
EY : $11,008
TG : $11,662
EK : $13,782
BA : £5,857
TG : £5,857
EY : £5,878
EK : £6,751
QF : £6,746
SQ : £7,826
I have trouble identifying EK as being the cheapest there
Looking at the reverse
BA : $10,930
EY : $11,008
TG : $11,662
EK : $13,782