Crew in First Class policy
Aug 25, 2015, 6:27 am
#46
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: MAN DXB ✈️
Programs: Skywards Gold
Posts: 6,831
We are in a trend of going OT it seems 
I definitely think that if you op-up too much you run the risk of doing a US carrier with their entitlement expectation problem.
However for a situation where there are dozens of op-ups to occur you first need space in the higher cabins in the first place and then you can move J pax to F. If there's a large number of op-ups happening it implies empty J in the first case so there's no initial J demand to dilute. if it's happening regularly on a full A380, I'd then argue that because there is so much seating capacity in J and Y it's unlikely passengers are going to notice it happening too often. It's not like op-ups on commuter routes, where there is ample opportunity for a weekly pax to notice load patterns - I think on the routes where there are regular op-ups there are very few people who travel on them enough to notice and then care about things like load patterns enough to make them feel the product is diluted.
I definitely think that if you op-up too much you run the risk of doing a US carrier with their entitlement expectation problem.
However for a situation where there are dozens of op-ups to occur you first need space in the higher cabins in the first place and then you can move J pax to F. If there's a large number of op-ups happening it implies empty J in the first case so there's no initial J demand to dilute. if it's happening regularly on a full A380, I'd then argue that because there is so much seating capacity in J and Y it's unlikely passengers are going to notice it happening too often. It's not like op-ups on commuter routes, where there is ample opportunity for a weekly pax to notice load patterns - I think on the routes where there are regular op-ups there are very few people who travel on them enough to notice and then care about things like load patterns enough to make them feel the product is diluted.
Have a friend in Y who is silver - guessing she's in with a shout of an opup.
Looks way under in J and way over in y.
Aug 25, 2015, 6:54 am
#47
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 5,455
Aug 25, 2015, 8:37 pm
#49
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: MAN DXB ✈️
Programs: Skywards Gold
Posts: 6,831
Aug 26, 2015, 3:21 am
#50
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 5,455
And yes, I suspect it was way over
Aug 26, 2015, 4:10 pm
#51
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Europe
Programs: EK plat, ex-FB gold, Accor plat
Posts: 1,076
Back to OP story, I'm wondering how OP knew that an off-duty captain was sitting in F.
It's quite possible that I missed some details of the story.
Two points here :
1) Sometimes, I was travelling with deadheading captains (in their EK uniform). They were always in J. But that doesn't mean that it is the corporate rule. Maybe, F were full with paying pax.
2) A very close family member is working in a legacy carrier. While travelling private, she is required to keep low profile so as not to make paying passengers aware that she is only paying 10%. Very careful pax can notice standby pax, but they cannot guess if she is Company or not, and surely not her job position ...
Well, either you are always flying F/J and you never sat in a B777 Y seat ; or you are always flying Y, and never sat in F/J seat ... :-) :-) (just joking, no offence intended)
It's quite possible that I missed some details of the story.
Two points here :
1) Sometimes, I was travelling with deadheading captains (in their EK uniform). They were always in J. But that doesn't mean that it is the corporate rule. Maybe, F were full with paying pax.
2) A very close family member is working in a legacy carrier. While travelling private, she is required to keep low profile so as not to make paying passengers aware that she is only paying 10%. Very careful pax can notice standby pax, but they cannot guess if she is Company or not, and surely not her job position ...
Well, either you are always flying F/J and you never sat in a B777 Y seat ; or you are always flying Y, and never sat in F/J seat ... :-) :-) (just joking, no offence intended)
Aug 29, 2015, 7:39 pm
#52
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Dubai / NYC
Programs: EK-IO, UA-1K2MM, ETIHAD-GOLD, SPG-PLAT LIFETIME, JUMEIRAH SERIUS GOLD
Posts: 5,220
Whatever our various gripes & niggles, there is no doubt that EK get most things 'right' - or they would never have made the dramatic progress they have, and all within the relatively short time since its creation.
But the scale on which Y-J op-ups are implemented is always a contentious one for any airline. Obviously the beneficiaries themselves are never less than delighted (as I too frequently am, when moved J-F). However... those who make a conscious decision to spend money on J tickets could feel a sense of grievance if a perception develops that others who have shelled out far less are then being given the same service - not just on isolated occasions, but almost routinely and in large numbers (I exaggerate to a degree there, but you get my drift)
Like I say - a delicate balancing act. The OP-ups solve a problem for the revenue people and controllers in the short term, and in the process also generate a lot of goodwill for those being moved ; but the downside is that an excessive pattern of overbooking can so easily end up damaging the integrity of the product AND the image of the carrier in the eyes of its most valuable pax.
But the scale on which Y-J op-ups are implemented is always a contentious one for any airline. Obviously the beneficiaries themselves are never less than delighted (as I too frequently am, when moved J-F). However... those who make a conscious decision to spend money on J tickets could feel a sense of grievance if a perception develops that others who have shelled out far less are then being given the same service - not just on isolated occasions, but almost routinely and in large numbers (I exaggerate to a degree there, but you get my drift)
Like I say - a delicate balancing act. The OP-ups solve a problem for the revenue people and controllers in the short term, and in the process also generate a lot of goodwill for those being moved ; but the downside is that an excessive pattern of overbooking can so easily end up damaging the integrity of the product AND the image of the carrier in the eyes of its most valuable pax.
Aug 30, 2015, 7:16 am
#53
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: DXB
Programs: EK, AA, DL, UA, SPG, HGP, Amex
Posts: 1,208
Three comments:
1) Op Ups have become an unwritten yet unregulated benefit of having status on EK. Like any good drug, regulate it, I say! Sure the process of the op up on flight day is regulated by Ops according (mainly) to tier status. But if, like the US mainliners, EK issued a certain number of "use it or lose it" confirmed upgrades each year to Gold /Plat (with rules or tiers like by flight length or whatever), then that would naturally relieve pressure in lower cabins to the extent they are actually usable (see second point). It would still leave some situations where flights are overbooked and people get an op up, but it would at least regulate and assign value to the process (ie a new benefit). There's also value to having some certainty for the upgrade vs the op up.
2) Using Skywards miles is hard, expensive or both. If using miles for upgrades were easier or using miles for awards were more economical, that would relieve some of the pressure on the system as well. We all know how thin availability (D class) and eligibility (T-24 for some) and how high the mileage cost are with the recent deval. It's so hard/expensive/difficult to do that there's value to just wait and see and hope for the op up.
3) Cash is king for EK. It appears EK's strategy is to always try to sell premium cabin seats for cash (even at a discount with the email offers) until the last minute, at which point it's often too late for them to monetize skywards miles and they have to give away the seats for free.
[Off topic from the Off topic: what's worse - too many random op ups or too easy AS awards?]
1) Op Ups have become an unwritten yet unregulated benefit of having status on EK. Like any good drug, regulate it, I say! Sure the process of the op up on flight day is regulated by Ops according (mainly) to tier status. But if, like the US mainliners, EK issued a certain number of "use it or lose it" confirmed upgrades each year to Gold /Plat (with rules or tiers like by flight length or whatever), then that would naturally relieve pressure in lower cabins to the extent they are actually usable (see second point). It would still leave some situations where flights are overbooked and people get an op up, but it would at least regulate and assign value to the process (ie a new benefit). There's also value to having some certainty for the upgrade vs the op up.
2) Using Skywards miles is hard, expensive or both. If using miles for upgrades were easier or using miles for awards were more economical, that would relieve some of the pressure on the system as well. We all know how thin availability (D class) and eligibility (T-24 for some) and how high the mileage cost are with the recent deval. It's so hard/expensive/difficult to do that there's value to just wait and see and hope for the op up.
3) Cash is king for EK. It appears EK's strategy is to always try to sell premium cabin seats for cash (even at a discount with the email offers) until the last minute, at which point it's often too late for them to monetize skywards miles and they have to give away the seats for free.
[Off topic from the Off topic: what's worse - too many random op ups or too easy AS awards?]
Aug 31, 2015, 2:50 am
#54
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Europe
Programs: EK plat, ex-FB gold, Accor plat
Posts: 1,076
Let me share with you my opinion.
1/ Meal availability : crew should have been more careful by asking your choice first hand for example. I know that people here in FT don't like to "complain", but that's the only way a company can be informed and improve (EK only allows you to "compliment" or "complain" ...). Without being a DYKWIA, your irritation is fully legit and must be reported.
2/ Op-Up : I don't find EK to be liberal.
Op-Up always existed, at least for the 40+ years I'm flying. For airlines, it is a standard scheme to maximize revenues / profits, and we can't blame them for that, all the more that more people can travel.
US carriers upgrade for free even if the original class isn't full, and that's very unhealthy as it leads to what you are describing : people expecting to be upgraded. (I'm not even talking about the publicized list of "upgrade stand-by"
)AFAIK, EK only upgrades when your class is really full (that's the real sense of "op-up"). Maybe, some FT are looking at booking status and reserve a lower class, but, it is probably marginal and the bet is not always successful. Most of Gold/Plat fly for business, and are more guided by schedule constraints than op-up probability.
(the above is not The Truth, but, just my dirham out of 7 billion)
Last edited by ioto1902; Aug 31, 2015 at 2:56 am Reason: rephrase for clarity
Aug 31, 2015, 4:31 am
#55
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 5,455
I agree with the previous posts - chinatraderjmr's issue about meal availability is unacceptable, especially as an iO.
I've noticed that catering provisions are becoming more...err...efficient...in F lately, so perhaps a gentle reminder from EKs most valued passengers that cuts are noticeable and are a negative will go some way to letting the boss know his catering department needs to stop focusing on targets to the detriment of passenger experience, otherwise EK will be turning into BA catering before long! If it worked for Hennessy Prive and Paradis, I think it would work for F catering.
I think that is less an issue with op-ups than it is with catering's loading and the crew though, although the op-up situation is a factor.
With regards to the comments about op-ups, as ioto1902 says, they have always been a fact of life in the aviation industry and will continue to be whilst overbooking and revenue management is needed. EKs revenue managers are aggressive because their margins are thinner and they fly planes that require high loads as well to work (i.e. the A380) - which feeds into extramileage's point about why cash is king on EK. That means op-ups are here to stay.
But it is good that they are not following the US model of complimentary upgrades being a stated benefit, even when the original class is not full - which is the real entitlement issue.
EK know about Expertflyer and staff reporting loads to Skywards status pax friends - for instance earlier this year, loads on the internal reporting tools for crew were changed to be not visible until a couple of days before departure, in an attempt to crack down on this (that is, buy Y/J tickets on full flights instead of J/F). That has helped a lot, as Expertflyer is not as accurate - you can't see standby amounts on EF, and sometimes J/Y etc. is for sale when it's actually overbooked. I'd disagree then that many people are buying Y/J now and gambling on an op-up due to the lack of information you now have - in fact the very fact people regard it as a gamble shows the lack of entitlement that is out there.
I don't think EK would ever "regulate" op-ups and I don't think they should - that would legitimise the practice and I think lead to the feeling of entitlement that I think everyone agrees is bad. Having something unwritten and unpublished makes it easy to deny and refuse - a critical requirement when you use the seat movement ability to get a plane away full and on time.
Whilst skywards rewards pre check-in have poor availability and could do with an improvement (although I think it won't happen, given the fact that Skywards miles have a strict 3 year expiry, so they have no real pressing need to get the liabilities off their books in the way that an airline with no expiry miles do) the ability for space-available upgrades even on board makes up some way for it. If you could upgrade 2 classes, that would be even better
. Skywards being a poor value program I think is a separate issue!
I've noticed that catering provisions are becoming more...err...efficient...in F lately, so perhaps a gentle reminder from EKs most valued passengers that cuts are noticeable and are a negative will go some way to letting the boss know his catering department needs to stop focusing on targets to the detriment of passenger experience, otherwise EK will be turning into BA catering before long! If it worked for Hennessy Prive and Paradis, I think it would work for F catering.
I think that is less an issue with op-ups than it is with catering's loading and the crew though, although the op-up situation is a factor.
With regards to the comments about op-ups, as ioto1902 says, they have always been a fact of life in the aviation industry and will continue to be whilst overbooking and revenue management is needed. EKs revenue managers are aggressive because their margins are thinner and they fly planes that require high loads as well to work (i.e. the A380) - which feeds into extramileage's point about why cash is king on EK. That means op-ups are here to stay.
But it is good that they are not following the US model of complimentary upgrades being a stated benefit, even when the original class is not full - which is the real entitlement issue.
EK know about Expertflyer and staff reporting loads to Skywards status pax friends - for instance earlier this year, loads on the internal reporting tools for crew were changed to be not visible until a couple of days before departure, in an attempt to crack down on this (that is, buy Y/J tickets on full flights instead of J/F). That has helped a lot, as Expertflyer is not as accurate - you can't see standby amounts on EF, and sometimes J/Y etc. is for sale when it's actually overbooked. I'd disagree then that many people are buying Y/J now and gambling on an op-up due to the lack of information you now have - in fact the very fact people regard it as a gamble shows the lack of entitlement that is out there.
I don't think EK would ever "regulate" op-ups and I don't think they should - that would legitimise the practice and I think lead to the feeling of entitlement that I think everyone agrees is bad. Having something unwritten and unpublished makes it easy to deny and refuse - a critical requirement when you use the seat movement ability to get a plane away full and on time.
Whilst skywards rewards pre check-in have poor availability and could do with an improvement (although I think it won't happen, given the fact that Skywards miles have a strict 3 year expiry, so they have no real pressing need to get the liabilities off their books in the way that an airline with no expiry miles do) the ability for space-available upgrades even on board makes up some way for it. If you could upgrade 2 classes, that would be even better
. Skywards being a poor value program I think is a separate issue!
Aug 31, 2015, 4:56 am
#56
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: MAN DXB ✈️
Programs: Skywards Gold
Posts: 6,831
I think they should regulate op ups when required - IO/Plat/Gold/Silver/Blue in strict order.
Its a joke if a gold gets it over a plat.
The number of people gambling looking at loads must be tiny - EK is consistently inconsistent at applying upgrades especially at outstations where mates and locals get it over status pax.
Its a joke if a gold gets it over a plat.
The number of people gambling looking at loads must be tiny - EK is consistently inconsistent at applying upgrades especially at outstations where mates and locals get it over status pax.
Aug 31, 2015, 5:18 am
#57
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 5,455
I think they should regulate op ups when required - IO/Plat/Gold/Silver/Blue in strict order.
Its a joke if a gold gets it over a plat.
The number of people gambling looking at loads must be tiny - EK is consistently inconsistent at applying upgrades especially at outstations where mates and locals get it over status pax.
Its a joke if a gold gets it over a plat.
The number of people gambling looking at loads must be tiny - EK is consistently inconsistent at applying upgrades especially at outstations where mates and locals get it over status pax.
After all, I've done a miles upgrade at the lounge and the new bp was only printed off at the gate. If I was say, silver, it might look to a Gold/Plat behind me who was nosy about such things that I got an op-up and they didn't
I don't know which stations are bad with the whole friends/local upgrades, but out of the ones I regularly travel to they are all done strictly by Skywards status...
Aug 31, 2015, 7:20 am
#58
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Europe
Programs: EK plat, ex-FB gold, Accor plat
Posts: 1,076
Well, all of those "complaining" about unfair EK op-up should definitively avoid AF where you have higher probability of complimentary upgrades if you are GP, though - I admit - it often happens onboard.
The worst part of it is that FAs do not hide serving an upgraded GP.
My "best" recollection was a PEK-CDG in B77W FCL. Sitting in 1A, I clearly heard the purser saying to a middle aged couple (seats 2E-2F) : "I'm sorry I can't upgrade your children as there is no more seat available. But I could seat them in business class." ...
The whole class heard that ...
From other exchanges, I clearly understood they were GP.
To be fair, the couple's behavior was very discreet, but that's not the point ...
By the way, how do I know the couple was upgraded ? Very simple : they moved from "behind" with all their stuff once the doors were closed.
Did they pay for an onboard upgrade ? Hum ... from a long experience of AF, I'll bet for a no.
One additional detail : AF allows pax from "behind" to visit FCL pax, and usually, upgraded pax have families and friends discover FCL cabin ...
EK forbids visits from "behind" and "down below" (yerk).
So, for me, EK is far from chaos as far as upgrade is concerned.
(again, that's just my feeling based on my sole experience)
The worst part of it is that FAs do not hide serving an upgraded GP.
My "best" recollection was a PEK-CDG in B77W FCL. Sitting in 1A, I clearly heard the purser saying to a middle aged couple (seats 2E-2F) : "I'm sorry I can't upgrade your children as there is no more seat available. But I could seat them in business class." ...
The whole class heard that ...
From other exchanges, I clearly understood they were GP.
To be fair, the couple's behavior was very discreet, but that's not the point ...
By the way, how do I know the couple was upgraded ? Very simple : they moved from "behind" with all their stuff once the doors were closed.
Did they pay for an onboard upgrade ? Hum ... from a long experience of AF, I'll bet for a no.
One additional detail : AF allows pax from "behind" to visit FCL pax, and usually, upgraded pax have families and friends discover FCL cabin ...
EK forbids visits from "behind" and "down below" (yerk
).So, for me, EK is far from chaos as far as upgrade is concerned.
(again, that's just my feeling based on my sole experience)
Sep 9, 2015, 6:57 pm
#59
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Auckland
Programs: NZ G, QF G, Accor Plat
Posts: 109
It depends why they are travelling, it's different on a ticket purchased for a % of price versus staff duty travel.
I recently did some work for a airline that involved a lot of long haul travel, I flew as staff in J all the time, but was entitled to no ground product. Every time I was re-ticketed at the gate.
I recently did some work for a airline that involved a lot of long haul travel, I flew as staff in J all the time, but was entitled to no ground product. Every time I was re-ticketed at the gate.
Sep 9, 2015, 11:31 pm
#60
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Europe
Programs: EK plat, ex-FB gold, Accor plat
Posts: 1,076
It depends why they are travelling, it's different on a ticket purchased for a % of price versus staff duty travel.
I recently did some work for a airline that involved a lot of long haul travel, I flew as staff in J all the time, but was entitled to no ground product. Every time I was re-ticketed at the gate.
I recently did some work for a airline that involved a lot of long haul travel, I flew as staff in J all the time, but was entitled to no ground product. Every time I was re-ticketed at the gate.
Let's say they are expats on annual leave. WCL/JCL why not, but, FCL ?!? (and JCL was not full)
Anyway, lucky them. Still, it's not correct to let the whole cabin know.
When I get upgraded, I don't want others to know. And I don't want to know who is upgraded.