EL AL Religious disaster redux
#91
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,153
Being told to shack up with same sex strangers by an airline trying to accommodate displaced passengers when
(a) the airline’s choice for hotel/hotels are sold out; and/or
(b) rooms at a negotiated rate in the applicable location are fully drawn down
isn’t unique to just this incident; nor is it unique to LY. I’ve seen it done repeatedly over the years and by multiple airlines from the EMEA region.
Not news to me, but that seems to not answer the asked question:
“Aren’t the majority of TLV-bound passengers flying on an average Thursday Jewish regardless of airline?”
I would be surprised if there was no survey data about this kind of question when it comes to Thursday departures to TLV (which would mean using Thursday or Friday arrivals data on the whole).
From the US on Thurs we are talking about a couple of flights LY from JFK, LY from EWR and UA from EWR. DL flys at night only so no religious Jews will be on that Thurs night flight. I think UA SFO-TLV arrives at night as well
Heading over next week myself, wanted to go Thurs via Europe but the best was via ZRH that arrives 2:35pm, with Shabbos being 4:20 no way to get to Jerusalem, so Weds it is
#92
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Israel
Programs: Elal Silver, AirCanada Aeroplan, AA AAdvantage, KLM Flying Blue, Continental OnePass, Delta Skymiles
Posts: 529
https://www.accorhotels.com/gb/hotel...rt/index.shtml
#93
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: HaMerkaz/Exit 145
Programs: UA, LY, BA, AA
Posts: 13,167
I was not debating religion so I don’t accept the religious debate characterization as a good excuse to try to shut me down on my saying that I am no fan of adults engaging in discrimination against airlines or flight crew members based on the prejudicial assumptions about the religious identity and any related religious duties of other adults, in this case of this airline and flight’s pilot/flight crew members who are their own keepers of their own identity.
Thank you for answering the question and enabling a debate on what is life/health-saving. Some may say that since resources are limited and money is fungible, commercially-appropriate decisions to legally maximize returns on asset (read: plane) use may well be a life/health-maximizing decision and would be the same regardless of the religious identity of flight crew members, a majority of the airline’s owners, and/or airline C-suite management.
I prefer that LY should not be held to a different, more prejudicial standard than other airlines serving TLV; but some others quite clearly see it differently.
I would prefer that LY should be viewed as a normal carrier, but it’s not being treated by all as such. And thus LY is caught in some kind of culture war where it can’t be all things to all people anymore than any non-Israeli carrier and yet pays an extra price in a way for its Israeli affiliation — whether dealing with Israelis or not.
I am no big fan of LY, and I am a critic of what LY did in this flight’s circumstance. But I am also a critic of LY being held to a different standard and criticism because of its Israeli identity and/or any of its Jewish affiliation. Maybe it’s long overdue for LY to start maximizing the use of its planes on all days of the week, and just get on with saying they are just a commercial airline trying to legally maximize the returns on their assets? But even that wouldn’t solve this kind of situation, but at least then LY would have a more level playing field in the space to commercially compete and put some downward pressure on airfares overall.
The best account from the Chabad Rabbi standpoint in Athens:
https://hamodia.com/2018/11/20/shabb...s-150-friends/
One interesting tidbit that I spotted in the article is that the hotel ran out of rooms and the people had to "shack up" with strangers.
https://hamodia.com/2018/11/20/shabb...s-150-friends/
One interesting tidbit that I spotted in the article is that the hotel ran out of rooms and the people had to "shack up" with strangers.
#94
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
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Posts: 102,095
I would rather see LY fleet utilization be improved by more full week operations as that would free up assets or help toward generating/preserving income that can do more good than spoilage of a sort.
Last edited by GUWonder; Nov 22, 2018 at 5:55 am
#95
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Posts: 13,167
That’s clearly not true, as maximizing many kinds of returns on assets helps to directly or indirectly save lives and to improve the quality of life for those facing medical problems.
I would rather see LY fleet utilization be improved by more full week operations as that would free up assets or help toward generating/preserving income that can do more good than spoilage of a sort.
#96
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Thank you Rabbi GUWonder but as I said before, this isn't a forum to debate religious law. Feel free to do so elsewhere. Here, we can only base it on facts and the fact is that not a single religious Jew would make such an argument. EL AL didn't even make such a claim. You are welcome to want to see LY fly on Shabbat. As of now, they don't, and this story is based on the fact that they don't.
I’m discussing double standards being applied to LY, LY’s potential sub-optimum fleet utilization due to the double standard applied to LY, the consequences of such double standard, and my distaste for such inconsistent standards as the sort with which I took issue earlier.
#97
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Except you're trying to justify LY flying on Shabbat by claiming it would be considered "life-saving," and therefore permitted under Jewish law. That is discussing religious law.
#98
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Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,153
I’m not discussing religious law but you sure seem to be trying. Thank you for the honorific anyway.
I’m discussing double standards being applied to LY, LY’s potential sub-optimum fleet utilization due to the double standard applied to LY, the consequences of such double standard, and my distaste for such inconsistent standards as the sort with which I took issue earlier.
Fact is as is LY is not suppose to be operating its flights on Shabbos, if I like it or not and if you like it or not.
#99
Moderator, El Al and Marriott Bonvoy, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: SIN
Programs: SQ*G, Mar LTT, Hyatt Glb, AA LTG, LY, HH, IC, BA, DL, UA SLV
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Moderator Note
Folks,
Any further discussion which doesn't discuss the facts of what happened with these flights will simply be deleted at OT. We have forums in FlyerTalk for discussion and debate of religious topics. Should you want to start a thread in this forum around the merits of EL AL's policy of not flying on Shabbat, that would be permitted in a dedicated thread. But not in this thread. Please get back to the topic of specifically what happened with these flights and the passengers on them.
Thanks,
yosithezet
Moderator, EL AL Forum
Any further discussion which doesn't discuss the facts of what happened with these flights will simply be deleted at OT. We have forums in FlyerTalk for discussion and debate of religious topics. Should you want to start a thread in this forum around the merits of EL AL's policy of not flying on Shabbat, that would be permitted in a dedicated thread. But not in this thread. Please get back to the topic of specifically what happened with these flights and the passengers on them.
Thanks,
yosithezet
Moderator, EL AL Forum
#101
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: HaMerkaz/Exit 145
Programs: UA, LY, BA, AA
Posts: 13,167
Last edited by joshwex90; Nov 25, 2018 at 3:13 am
#102
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2005
Location: TLV/LHR
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#103
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 65
Does the parachute need to touch ground before Shabbat? Will this be a new purpose of the exit row?
#104
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,153
Personally I dont get the whole thing with demanding an acceptable Apology from LY
If it was me Id rather work on making sure that 1- if a flight takes off and they know it wont make it to TLV before Shabbos then it must be deverted to a city where they will land say 1 hour before candle lighting, so that everyone can make it to a hotel. The 1st time they went to ATH this would have meant landing say in London. But its alot cheaper for LY to go to ATH
2- they should already have a list of caterers,restaurants and Chabad places where they can order and have food brought to where the passengers will be staying, as well as hotels that are closest to the airport or if possible a Chabad house or local Shule
3- of cause w/o saying before taking off let the passengers know that the plane will making a stop and all pasengers will get off those who want to still fly and arrive in on Israel on Shabbos there will be a charter plane to fly you.
About going back to the gate Yes but ONLY if it wouldnt have any impact on where the plane will be stopping, eg if they go back to the gate and remove the bags then most likely they wont arrive into London ( I think closest city to NA where they can get food etc) till < 1 hr before Shabbos, in that case there wont be any going back to the gate!
If it was me Id rather work on making sure that 1- if a flight takes off and they know it wont make it to TLV before Shabbos then it must be deverted to a city where they will land say 1 hour before candle lighting, so that everyone can make it to a hotel. The 1st time they went to ATH this would have meant landing say in London. But its alot cheaper for LY to go to ATH
2- they should already have a list of caterers,restaurants and Chabad places where they can order and have food brought to where the passengers will be staying, as well as hotels that are closest to the airport or if possible a Chabad house or local Shule
3- of cause w/o saying before taking off let the passengers know that the plane will making a stop and all pasengers will get off those who want to still fly and arrive in on Israel on Shabbos there will be a charter plane to fly you.
About going back to the gate Yes but ONLY if it wouldnt have any impact on where the plane will be stopping, eg if they go back to the gate and remove the bags then most likely they wont arrive into London ( I think closest city to NA where they can get food etc) till < 1 hr before Shabbos, in that case there wont be any going back to the gate!
Last edited by craz; Nov 25, 2018 at 4:31 pm
#105
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,153
Elal given ultimatum until tonight to apologise for false shaming and lies
??? ?????? ?????????? ????"?: ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? - ????? ??????? - ?????? - ????? ?????
??? ?????? ?????????? ????"?: ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? - ????? ??????? - ?????? - ????? ?????
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news...reporters.html