EL AL Religious disaster redux

Old Nov 17, 18, 12:23 pm
  #1  
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EL AL Religious disaster redux

LY flights Thursday PM to TLV delayed due to storms and snow in area
for fear that the planes would land at TLV after the start of shabbat
a handful of "religious" hooligans caused a scene on two flights.
per the Hebrew reports they maybe including physical violence towards cabin crew.

one plane landed at ATH and offloaded them to a hotel
other pax were ferried on an Israir flight to TLV
the LY plane flew to TLV empty

the second plane was to have landed at FCO but per Hebrew reports due to a sick passenger
accompanied by an MD that one continued to TLV (supposedly the LY rabbi gave an OK
as it involved a life threatening situation in which cases one is allowed to violate the Sabbath)

these crazy so called religious forget the Jewish precept that insulting a fellow human in public is a far greater sin than many others maybe e
(an old midrash states "it is better to fling oneself into a furnace than insult his fellow man in public")

I wonder why LY even allowed them on the plane in NY
and if they are so religious they themselves never should have boarded in NY

per latest reports police charges are being filed.
they should be prosecuted and life time banned from ANY airline world wide
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Old Nov 17, 18, 7:07 pm
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https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Vi...sengers-572139
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Old Nov 17, 18, 8:57 pm
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now for the non fake news take to what happened..

https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news...in-athens.html
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Old Nov 17, 18, 10:25 pm
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And this:
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/im-o...al-flight-002/
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Old Nov 17, 18, 10:41 pm
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And now this in Hebrew:
https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,73....html#autoplay

And this in English:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/religi...-el-al-flight/

Last edited by hnussbacher; Nov 17, 18 at 10:55 pm Reason: More links
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Old Nov 17, 18, 11:30 pm
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Here's what I don't understand. The flights in question are LY002, due to land 11:40 on Friday; and LY008, due to land 15:00. Shabbat starts a little after 16:00; surely no religious passenger caring about shabbat would even dream of taking LY008, unless they were spending the weekend at Ben Gurion Airport. But even with the noon arrival of 002, I can't see what these people were thinking: landing at 11:40, door opens at noon, about one hour for immigration and waiting for luggage, then a 30-60 minute ride to Jerusalem or wherever, and they're home just two hours before shabbat. In other words, even a not-very-rare two hour delay would have caused them to "desecrate shabbat". Why do they insist on taking these flights?

When I have to be somewhere 7 time zones away, I make sure to leave enough time for the trip. I would never consider arriving two hours before an important meeting. Let alone an obligation that is life-and-death, as keeping the shabbat seems to be for some. Why do they take these risks?

Shuly
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Old Nov 18, 18, 12:10 am
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Originally Posted by shuly View Post
Here's what I don't understand. The flights in question are LY002, due to land 11:40 on Friday; and LY008, due to land 15:00. Shabbat starts a little after 16:00; surely no religious passenger caring about shabbat would even dream of taking LY008, unless they were spending the weekend at Ben Gurion Airport. But even with the noon arrival of 002, I can't see what these people were thinking: landing at 11:40, door opens at noon, about one hour for immigration and waiting for luggage, then a 30-60 minute ride to Jerusalem or wherever, and they're home just two hours before shabbat. In other words, even a not-very-rare two hour delay would have caused them to "desecrate shabbat". Why do they insist on taking these flights?

When I have to be somewhere 7 time zones away, I make sure to leave enough time for the trip. I would never consider arriving two hours before an important meeting. Let alone an obligation that is life-and-death, as keeping the shabbat seems to be for some. Why do they take these risks?

Shuly
I happen to agree with most of what you said. But you do know that many people arent heading to Jerusalem or Zefat and live within say a 20 min drive if that to the airport, be it TA,Rehovot,Petach Tikva, Bnei Brak,Ramat Gan etc etc
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Old Nov 18, 18, 1:30 am
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I know several people who were on that flight who are not Haredi and yet completely contradict EL AL's media spin.

As for why religious people are on that flight to begin with - BESIDES for those who were bumped to begin with, everyone on FT knows you can't always plan the perfect flight. Work obligation, family obligations, etc. That's the reason many of them specifically chose to fly EL AL over any other carrier who wouldn't take Shabbat into consideration.

The fact that the flight crew arrived hours late is a disgrace. Had the crew been on time, they likely would've made it before shabbat.

By the time they left the gate, the staff knew 100% they wouldn't make it in time. So they should have never departed.

Major Issues
  1. Flight crew came extremely late
  2. They knew they wouldn't make it and departed anyways
  3. They lied, claiming they were heading back to the gate and just took off (which is ALSO a major safety issue, as people, rightfully or not, weren't buckled - yes, a big problem anyways - because they assumed plane was returning to gate, not heading to runway)

Had I bee on the flight, I wouldn't have been violent. But I'd be pissed. Because given the opportunity, I would've not gone on the flight. And many asked for the opportunity to deplane once it became clear they wouldn't make it. (Keep in mind that when they boarded, there was still a great chance of making it on time - the issue was that they boarded long before the full crew arrived.) So I can't even fault for them boarding. Once the issue was made clear, they asked to deplane (and for the most part, didn't even make an issue of the plane itself flying on Shabbat - just that they didn't want to be there), and they were refused. So I would've been pissed at the crew - yes, this is one of those time's it's the crew's fault, not "weather" or "management" or some other one to shift the blame.
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Old Nov 18, 18, 2:44 am
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Old Nov 18, 18, 3:35 am
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Originally Posted by Michael Nash View Post
LY flights Thursday PM to TLV delayed due to storms and snow in area
for fear that the planes would land at TLV after the start of shabbat
a handful of "religious" hooligans caused a scene on two flights.
per the Hebrew reports they maybe including physical violence towards cabin crew.

one plane landed at ATH and offloaded them to a hotel
other pax were ferried on an Israir flight to TLV
the LY plane flew to TLV empty

the second plane was to have landed at FCO but per Hebrew reports due to a sick passenger
accompanied by an MD that one continued to TLV (supposedly the LY rabbi gave an OK
as it involved a life threatening situation in which cases one is allowed to violate the Sabbath)

these crazy so called religious forget the Jewish precept that insulting a fellow human in public is a far greater sin than many others maybe e
(an old midrash states "it is better to fling oneself into a furnace than insult his fellow man in public")

I wonder why LY even allowed them on the plane in NY
and if they are so religious they themselves never should have boarded in NY

per latest reports police charges are being filed.
they should be prosecuted and life time banned from ANY airline world wide
In which country are police charges being filed, and what are the charges? It will be interesting to see if there are any criminal convictions at all for whatever happened on this flight.

I have to assume that most or all of the passengers upset about what the delay and re-routing may mean to meeting of religious obligations got off in Greece. Did the Greek police arrest and charge any passengers from this flight for any unlawful behavior?

My take away from this situation is that LY misleading passengers made this situation as bad as it may have been.
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Old Nov 18, 18, 4:15 am
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Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post


In which country are police charges being filed, and what are the charges? It will be interesting to see if there are any criminal convictions at all for whatever happened on this flight.

I have to assume that most or all of the passengers upset about what the delay and re-routing may mean to meeting of religious obligations got off in Greece. Did the Greek police arrest and charge any passengers from this flight for any unlawful behavior?

My take away from this situation is that LY misleading passengers made this situation as bad as it may have been.
EL AL filed a complaint with the Israel Police who are investigating. I doubt anything will come of it, for a variety of reasons, but it's in their hands now (not Greek police).

EL AL policy is not to fly on Shabbat at all, so all passengers, religious or not, Israeli or not, Jewish or not, disembarked in Athens. As I understand it, those willing to fly on Shabbat flew a chartered Israir plane about 3 hours later while those not willing to fly on Shabbat flew Saturday night at around 23:00 local time.
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Old Nov 18, 18, 6:18 am
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Old Nov 18, 18, 8:01 am
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Originally Posted by shuly View Post
Here's what I don't understand. The flights in question are LY002, due to land 11:40 on Friday; and LY008, due to land 15:00. Shabbat starts a little after 16:00; surely no religious passenger caring about shabbat would even dream of taking LY008, unless they were spending the weekend at Ben Gurion Airport. But even with the noon arrival of 002, I can't see what these people were thinking: landing at 11:40, door opens at noon, about one hour for immigration and waiting for luggage, then a 30-60 minute ride to Jerusalem or wherever, and they're home just two hours before shabbat. In other words, even a not-very-rare two hour delay would have caused them to "desecrate shabbat". Why do they insist on taking these flights?

When I have to be somewhere 7 time zones away, I make sure to leave enough time for the trip. I would never consider arriving two hours before an important meeting. Let alone an obligation that is life-and-death, as keeping the shabbat seems to be for some. Why do they take these risks?

Shuly
Indeed, no religious Jew would be on LY008. On the other hand, Shabbat started here at 16:17 and LY002 was scheduled to land at 11:40. That leaves 4.5 hours + 18 minutes :-)

Only someone who has flown on Thurs night and came in 5 hours late and had to beat the Shabbat clock will never again fly Thur night. Happened to me once from AMS about 15 years ago and I will not fly any longer where my flight is not scheduled to land at least 12 hours before Shabbat. But that is hindsight and wisdom learned. I would bet that out of the 80+ religious people stuck, most had never had such an experience and most will never fly again with only a 5 hour buffer.
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Old Nov 18, 18, 8:07 am
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Originally Posted by joshwex90 View Post

The fact that the flight crew arrived hours late is a disgrace. Had the crew been on time, they likely would've made it before shabbat.

By the time they left the gate, the staff knew 100% they wouldn't make it in time. So they should have never departed.

Major Issues
  1. Flight crew came extremely late.
It is my understanding that international flight regulations require a certain amount of time for crews between flights. I do not know whether "pickup time at hotel" is when the clock stops or when they "checkin at the airport". If the "freeze" time for crew stops at hotel pickup time, it could very well have been if they had picked up the crew 6 hours before flight time they would have been in violation of int'l flight regulations.
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Old Nov 18, 18, 9:13 am
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Originally Posted by joshwex90 View Post
The fact that the flight crew arrived hours late is a disgrace. Had the crew been on time, they likely would've made it before shabbat.

By the time they left the gate, the staff knew 100% they wouldn't make it in time. So they should have never departed.
Josh, I have to disagree with you. Read the FA comments on Facebook. It took them 5-6 hours to get from the hotel to the airport. There's no way you can prepare for that. And when they left the gate, they did not know they won't be able to land before shabbat. I think ElAl should be commended for how they handled this extraordinary situation. The pax, on the other hand... Not!

Shuly
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