my arguement is for the little more down to earth places...i know a nightclub, in a casino, where the bartenders are bringin home 1200 a night. i dont think they care if they get stiffed. the waiter at ruby tuesdays or dennys is not bringin home 500 a night. the tax arguement is just stupid. if a bill is 100 bucks and you have to tip on 106 is that really such a big deal? takes ya longer to figure it out then just throw a bill down.

Chris,

What do you mean when you say you "pay out for food"? I know you have to give some of your tip for the bartender but did not know about others.

I agree 100%. In Australia we only tip what we feel reflects the value and standard of service of the meal. Tipping is not expected. If I am not happy with the meal or standard of service I simply do not tip.If this happens in a country like the US where tipping is expected, I will ask for the Manager and explain my position.

I've left a one-cent tip twice in my life, for actively belligerent service which did not improve after the manager was called over.

Have a few regular restaurants/bars I've been going to for quite a number of years.
With them, I'll do 15 to 20% PLUS 25% of whatever I'm comp'ed.
Tends to work out well, and manager knows (eventually).

When you get to a place and your drink is ready for you might be somewhat in a rut though.

Nope:
http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/tip.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tip#Etymology

I've never had belligerent service which did not improve after the manager was called over - if the service is bad enough that I've got to involve the manager mid-meal, I'm going to ask for a new server or for an early check.

We're still waiting for the names of your restaurants.

You should pay them better in the first place
 

4444 - If you feel that way about your servers, YOU SHOULD PAY THEM BETTER IN THE FIRST PLACE and not blame customers who don't give better tips because of poor service. But since it WOULD cost you something, I am sure you won't pony up.

But then, tipping is NOT required is it? You crossed the line by implying that you want to take non-tippers into the alley. I spent many years working as a dishwasher, my only means of income, and I feel for the working poor, but I am not obligated to give them money just because you are too cheap to pay adequate wages. I have no intention of systematically giving 18%+ tips because of tip creep, and if you don't like it, yeah, please, take me into the alley so you can beat the s**t out of me. Let's see how your excuses fly in court and you not only go to jail, but will lose everything. If I knew what restaurants you had a stake in, I would never enter the establishments. You are not the one doing me a favor by letting me eat at your restaurant, it is my choice and I do so at my pleasure. There are so many restaurants, do you really think that I HAVE to eat at yours?

Also, who are you to say that if people are poor they should stay home? I guess we should just lock the poor up so people like you won't get worked up that they are not throwing enough money at you. If I ever left a bad tip (cannot think of a time I have), it would mean that I have no intention of coming back because of poor service.

if you took the time to read all my posts you would have seen that i stated i pay all my employees more than they would make anywhere else. more than enough to make a living. instead of typing in bold letters take the time to read the whole thread. i dont need your business and for all that say they would stay away... i laugh. you people kiss the a*s of us athletes and always have. not my fault....

yea i'll post them on a public forum. lol.

lol. if i took you in the alley you would call your lawyer? lol mommy too.

Please "take me in the alley". I'll call my attorney to relieve you of your assets and the police to relieve you of your freedom. :rolleyes:

lol. if the cop was your brother he wouldnt be able to help you in my town. dont try to be an internet toughguy and dont turn this around to make me the bad guy. the alley was an obvious joke. again read all the posts. im sticking up for the small guy here. i wouldnt have to if you losers were'nt so cheap.

i lived there for a few years, but it was 2-3 months before i noticed this.

there are a lot of euros and south americans that might have different tipping customs, so i kind of understand why.

that being said - no one ever said anything to me like "sir, you might not have noticed that the tip was included..." i can't imagine a scenario where i would tip 20% on top of 18%, and they surely knew it was an error.

buyer beware i guess.

i too have always tipped on the total , but i agree that tipping on tax seems excessive.

fwiw - i am usually a 20% tipper, but 15% if the service is bad. the problem i have with tipping (and this may be covered between page 2 and the last page) is that the server doesn't know what the tip represents. the server may assume i'm cheap when i think he sucks. i may think i am being generous and want to recognize good service, but the server may think it was just a rounded amount. it is very ambiguous and doesn't necessarily send the message that the patron thinks is being sent.

saying something negative to the server could be taken very hostile - especially if i plan on returning to the restaurant again.

say something to the manager, and they may think you are trying to get a freebie out of them.

deleted

I, for the life of me, cannot figure out why you would get so upset then about tipping (if you pay above average wages) that you would want to harm anyone who doesn't give a good tip. Maybe this is just your personality - you don't get your way so you want to get physical.

You have not addressed what got me all worked up - wanting to take a poor tipper into the alley. If your attitude became common knowledge, do you really believe that your business would not suffer. Yeah, let us know what restaurants you are involved in and since you don't need our business, we won't go. Of course, I expect you to be to cowardly to tell us (as in the previous post).

I think the same about athletes, prima donas like yourself who provide no redeeming value to society. It is just entertainment, nothing more and I and wouldn't kiss any athletes a**. I don't go to sports games nor do I watch them and now have even less incentive.

i did address it. again you didnt read the whole thread. it is not poor tippers. it is cheapskates. big difference. it is people who think they are above or better than a person simply because they are a waiter. i see it every day all day. loser business types, in expensive suits, garbage rolex watches and their bmw that they cant afford, think they are better than someone who waits tables or sweeps floors. i dont tolerate it. is it my job or place to open my mouth? maybe not but i do. as far as providing no redeeming value to society? call me when you donate a couple hundred grand to childrens hospital or pay for a park to be built. dozens of charities benefit from me being an athlete. "prima donna" is someone who puts themselves first. again if you read the whole thread you will see that term does not apply....i'm glad that i am recovering from surgery and have time to play on this forum all day. shouldnt you guys be workin?:)

i've read 217 posts now, and i want to add a few more points - although this seems to be getting off topic:

1. when i first was introduced to tipping by my parents, i was told to double the tax. that works to include pre-tax and gets you around 15% - 19%. i think i will go back to that instead of 20% on the total. i am surprised no one mentioned this since it seems to be fairly common.

2. if you give the server your credit card immediately when the check is presented, a lot of times you get the credit card slips but not the paper bill and itemization. if you want to review the bill, do it before giving your card

3. at the end of the day - 200+ posts on what amounts to a $2 - $5 difference for most dining situations... i think it's kind of funny.

still, i think that the inability to communicate your satisfaction or dissatisfaction clearly is the single greatest problem with the current system.

if i owned a restaurant it would have a line for the tip amount and five boxes underneath to rate your server so that there a clear communication (and so that the management was able to see how guests felt about their servers).

That's a great rule of thumb as long as you're in places where the tax rate is fairly high. I'm not sure if therre are still any parts of the country with a 5%-6% sales tax, but there at least used to be :)

That helps. OTOH, if I forget, since I usually just do 20% on the pre-tax, well, 15% on the after tax isn't that different.

I'm sure you are a wonderful humanitarian and phillanthropist in the city which you seem to own.

If you make threats of in posts and that I'm afraid is what you unquestionably did do, It isn't a joke if you have to tell people several posts later that was what it was.

Your quote "if the cop was your brother he wouldnt be able to help you in my town" is somewhat sinister and if it is intended as a joke, again I'm afraid i think it is misguided.

Given the testorone heavy nature of your posts, can we assume your athletism is Power Lifting or The Tour de France.

I think you've made your point -

1. You pay your staff loads
2. Despite that, or maybe because of that, you think we should still tip heavilly no matter how indifferent the service is
3. Anyone who doesn't is a cheap deadbeat
4. You're the big man in your town
5. You donate oodles of your cash to worthy goods
6. People who drive BMWs and wear Rolexes are the route of all evil

Deleted

Then, guess what? I don't believe you really are a restaurant owner, just some trying to pad his post count. :D

The New York Times once said of the old Ratner's restaurant in New York that the motto of the waiters seemed to be "the customer is rarely right."

This was, of course, satire.

I never believed that there existed someone in the restaurant business who believed "the customer is never right" unless the customer happened to agree with him.

lol. pad my post count? if you have a couple thousand posts on an online forum you have credibility or just nothing else to do? man i had better catch up.:) and to kettering sloan northlands coliseum up there...power lifting and bike riding? you couldnt come up with better sports than those? are those even sports? as far as 1-6? you are correct. man i should have answered separately so i could get one more post. darn.

Gentle reminder
 

Folks please do not Tip -errrrrr Feed the trolls :D
In before the lock ^

Keep in mind the opinions of the people who are "sticking up" for people in my profession do not necessarily share the same views of those in said profession, and in this case probably have nearly opposite views on most matters. Quite frankly, if an owner of a restaurant ever confronted a guest about how much they tipped, I'd find a new restaurant to work at, since we wouldn't exactly be looking out for the guest's benefit. (I only complain about tips behind closed doors, not to the guest's face :D)

Chris

No, that would be I-95 through New Jersey(*) :)

(* or pick any other large interstate in a neighboring state you like to pick on.)

oops should have read Root - posted late at night. I prefer your answer though

To 4444
Really interesting Post
Obviously the subtlety of my post was
Lost on you, although I thought I was using a sledgehammer.
Let's move on

Au contraire:p

Hi, Chris. I have two adult children and on SIL who work in restaurants. One is as a chef, one as a server, and the SIL as a bartender. All in very fine food restaurants in a San Francisco.

The notion that you "lose" money when people do not tip you to a standard that you expect, to me, betrays a very high sense of entitlement. If you end your shift with more in your pocket than when you started, you have made money. Period.

Gosh, if I expect to earn X dollars in my business, but earn only 95% of x, have I "lost" money? Nope. I have just earned less than I hoped for.

Next, I am very familiar with front of the house back of the house differences in POV. Still, when I see how hard the people in the kitchen work and what kind of skill they must have, I find the whining of the servers when someone disappoints them by leaving only 18% on pre-tax tab to be rather self-involved. When servers can live on 3 shifts and take home much more than line cooks working five shifts, when servers can earn as much as many sous chefs, something is wrong.

Servers are the face of the restaurant. They have to - or at least should - know a lot about the food that others cook - and often carry to the table for them. They need to be pleasant and to create and evening out atmosphere rather than "here's your food, eat and go", and so on.

But I really cannot get over servers who cannot get over themselves while living off the underpaid labor of those in the kitchen.
.

I agree! They are basically the front line employees (in addition to the greeters if applicable) of the business.

Excellent post Teacher49!

lets play nice
 

I've had a few complaints about this thread, but I think the topic still has further conversation value... so I'll leave it open.

However, lets keep the FT TOS in mind, play nice, and use the Report Bad Post icon rather than fanning flames.

Peace Out

MissyD

I will never, ever, tip more than the auto-grat. As far as I'm concerned, if the server wanted to be tipped appropriately, he would have left it off and commented to me that he/she did so. If I can't be trusted to tip appropriately, then I won't.

When was it ever 10% in the USA? When I was a kid in the 1960s, it was certainly 15%...20 years ago (1988) it was also 15% (as a standard tip).

I've been tipping 15%(minimum)-20% my whole life (even when I was a kid in the third grade, and had to grab lunch at a counter once in a while).

I never tip over and above autograt. If you've taken the decision away from me, you lose the upside as well as the downside.

It's cruel to leave less than the customary amount when service is adequate. However, I resist lobbying by service people to inflate the customary amount. A 15% tip on the food portion of the bill is customary, with some extra thrown in if alcohol is ordered, but certainly not 15% of an expensive bottle of wine.

I tend to leave about 20% of the total bill including alcohol, but I cap it at around $30/person. I consider that overtipping, but I have the means to overtip and I dine out frequently and have relationships with the staff. Only once have I heard a complaint about a $120 tip left on a dinner for four that came to about $1100 with expensive wine. I never returned to that restaurant, but I suggest that the waiter involved seek a new career, perhaps neurosurgery.

QL

The ones the servers love are, indeed, the ones who tip at 20% including the expensive bottles of wine. Common, too.

I've heard the reference @ tax as well... but doesn't work so well in my state (for the server at least) :p

I was actually stunned when I first started traveling outside of Alaska... since sales tax up here is a foreign concept- No State Sales/Income tax ; ANC- none; other places 3-6%...

I am very frugal though, being on a limited income & dealing with sales tax. I tend to go to inexpensive restaurants, and depending on service the tip is between 10-15%... I have yet to experience the 'extraordinary' service described, but would increase that amount if warranted...

I believe the concept of "double the tax" is a NYC thing since its 8.125% (or so).
There is a ton of debate about tipping on a $300 bottle of wine, as compared to a $75 bottle....is the service any different to warrant tipping on difference? Obviously from the server's point of view, s/he would wish the tip to be based on the total check, but from the diner's frame of reference, the tip is based on service, so does it take any more effort to uncork and pour the $300 bottle?

I was a tipped employee during college, so I know how it feels to be stiffed.

Finally, last week I experienced a first....an autogratuity of 20% for a party of 8 or more.....up to now, this topped out at 18%.

I certainly understand your point Teacher49, but what you're alluding to here is more a case of semantics than anything else. It's very true I don't lose money assuming that I get tipped above 3% (the amount we tip out), but shall I rephrase and say miss out on money that I might have earned otherwise. Granted my income is variable on a night to night basis. I understand that when I go into work, I might walk home with $50, or I might walk home with $200. That's part of the job, and we, as servers, accept that.

And again, I apologize if my tone on earlier posts seemed "whiny" because I'm not complaining if people don't tip more than 18% pre-tax. When I receive that, I'm perfectly content. The main point I tried to convey throughout this thread, much to seemingly everyone else's disdain, is that there are people out there, who, on a $100 tab, would leave their server $20. Those same people, when dining out with some of their friends at a large party, would get a $200 tab, with, let's say a $30 gratuity attached, wouldn't tip anything more than the gratuity. I think if the service in the first case warranted (note: warranted not just was entitled to) 20%, and in the second case, the service was just as good, why should the guest perhaps not "bump" the gratuity $10? Again, this is for great service.

It seems (from my experience as a server) that on the auto-gratuity issue people fall into three camps:

• 15% will leave an additional tip to add up to 20%-ish for good service
• 75% say "Oh, the tips already on there? OK great" and then sign the slip
• 10% get insulted and don't leave anything more because they feel the server is doing them an injustice

I'm obviously fine with the first two groups, but the third is where I take issue. I will repeat the same mantra I've been echoing the entire thread. It is not left up to our discretion if we "grat you". I'm sorry, but my boss doesn't allow me to not put the gratuity on any table of six or more adults. As I've repeated elsewhere in this thread, if I had my choice, and it wasn't discriminatory to pick and choose who I wanted to "grat", I would only "grat" maybe 5% of my large tables. Otherwise, I would like to think I'm a good enough server that 95% of my other tables would leave me >= the 18% pre-tax total. But, alas, I am not allowed to pick and choose, so I'm completely content with the 18%. But, insinuating that I, as the server, am insulting a guest by adding the gratuity is silly. It's a restaurant policy, not mine. So, if you take issue with that, talk to the manager; don't get upset at your server.

I have nothing but respect for the back of the house. Those ladies and gentleman work hard under duress for long hours, and true, often getting paid less than some of the servers. That said, the servers that do make more money than the back of the house better damn well know the food as well as the back of the house. I know I've jumped on the line before during the slower time of the day when most of the line cooks were working on their prep work. If I can't reproduce most of the dishes, I'm not worth my salt as a server. I might not have the same skill and technique as the people who prepare the dishes every day, but I do know all the ingredients that go into our dishes.

Our training is 7 days long, and trainees must learn the major (and some of the minor) ingredients in everything that we serve before ever being put in front of a table. Part of being a good server is being confident knowing the menu inside and out. Guests can sense that. The restaurant I worked at in Seattle had so many minor allergens in its recipes (shrimp paste, candlenuts, etc.) that every server had to memorize an allergy list.

The one way I "justify" what servers make in comparison to others in the restaurant is that servers have to know everyone else's job. We have to know the bartender's job because we are just as responsible for knowing how to make and garnish every drink we serve. We have to know the line cook's job because we are just as responsible for knowing how every dish is prepared. We have to know the host/maitre d's job because we should understand how and why certain tables get sat at what point. Often, we have to also know our manager's job, because we have to deal with problem customers, we have to use discretion in administering policies, and often times we have to take part in scheduling/inventory/paperwork matters.

On top of all that, we have to know our job: how to ring things in, how to most efficiently manage our multiple tables, learning about all the wine, including pairings, all while bringing a pleasant demeanor to our tables. I'm not saying being a server is "tough", but it does take a bit more knowledge and talent than people recognize.

Hopefully I've kept this all pretty level-headed, because I actually like the discussion, and hope people (i.e. one poster trying to stick up for the servers and probably doing more harm than good to the thread) will keep it on topic so that the discussion can continue. I await comments.

Your humble server,
Chris