I just spent time in Idaho and Wyoming. Food service in all the places we ate or tried to eat was often very poor.

Orders were very often filled wrong. I've never had this happen so often on one trip!

The one restaurant where I got a good meal with decent service was at the Wort Hotel in Jackson Wyoming. I tipped the waiter 15% and he was thrilled and said that it was very unusual to get anything over 10%.

Is this typical in Idaho and Wyoming?

now, we know why service is so crummy.crummy income=crummy service.

Your logic is the reason I always tip very very well at places like Denny's. I figure that the server is taking my order the same number of times, carrying the same number of plates, refilling my water the same number of times, and bringing the same number of checks as the server at a swanky restaurant.

Are you talking about restaurant tips or other tips, like bartenders, bellmen, and housekeeping?

Are you really saying that when you go out for dinner, your employer covers the cost of food and drink but not the tip? I have never heard of that! :confused:

This response makes absolutely no sense other than you don't care that Big Guy likes to tip on service not because it's expected. I don't disagree with him at all to be honest, although peer pressure or whatever you want to call it, I often find myself tipping more than I really think the server/taxi driver, etc deserve just because it's easier in the end.

excellent point. bad enough people, in trying to justify being cheap, punish the wait staff monetarily because the service wasnt up to par. if you dont like the service then cook it yourself. wait staff have a terrible job to begin with. on top of that they deal wth a public that is never happy. did anyone here ever have a bad day at work that affected their job? we all have except we still get paid. stiffing a waiter because their service wasnt up to your expectations is a low class move. i have interest in a couple bar-restaurants. my waiters make a base that you can live on but if you stiff my staff you never set foot in the door again. no exceptions not once, not ever. you'll be damn lucky we dont go in the alley.

By"poor server"I was refering to the quality of service and not the income of the server.
Speaking of scumbags :rolleyes:

Good for you!Now please tell us where this shrine to the nobility of labor(regardless of skill level)where the workers are kings and the customers just better not forget it-or else.
Inquiring minds want to know :D
It is not that your patrons are never happy-they are tired of being dragged into the alley for further "education"by the owner.

Sayyyyy-didn't Tony Soprano have an interest in a restaurant?

didnt call you a scumbag. i read all the posts. notice you tip quite well. your post sounded very condescending. if that was not your intention i am sorry.

lol. very funny. i wish there were such a place.

That is the case.I do not get reimbursed for grattuities of any type-except the once a year holiday "thank you"handshakes/cards.

I feel lucky to not be questioned on my expense report(never cheated on it either)and thus just because I do not get reimbursed I do not take that out on the person being tipped.

HOWEVER-because it comes out of my pocket I probably use more common sense in this matter than someone who can expense it.

Bad that people pay commensurately for the service they receive?

What a ridiculous sense of entitlement.

The one issue that strikes home for me is the tipping on bottles of wine/champagne. There is absolutely no difference in effort opening/serving a $50 bottle vs. a $200 bottle. At an 18% tip, it's $9 vs. $36. Not tragic, but annoying. And when you factor in that alcohol at restaurants is typically hyperinflated, what happens in the end is that I do not order that nicer bottle, and everyone loses out.

Unrelated to server tips, why do some restaurants find the need to mark up their alcohol 3-4 times? That's just ridiculous. Wouldn't they make it up in volume with a more reasonable mark up? I get so excited when I go to a restaurant and wines/champagnes are only marked up 100%. I go crazy.

I am NOT going to tip just because someone's job is depending on it. If you want a tip you had better provide service that warrants a tip.

You keep my drink refilled and check on me = 10%
You serve with a smile and get the order correct on top of that = 15%
You do an above average job on top of that = 20%
Really awe me and it has been as much as 40%

If your waiters' service is bad enough that I'm going to tip much below par... then either I'm also going to be complaining about them to the manager on the same visit, OR it's because I've decided I'm never going back and thus it's not worth my time to give feedback.

There are plenty of restaurants; if one have this much attitude towards patrons on other things, I can't imagine how a it would avoid losing them to other businesses.

I've just returned from Asia, and it was so nice not to tip every porter, taxi guy or most restaurants. Most hotels include a service charge in the bill, as do many restaurants.

Oh, please - by all means, let's take the alley option :rolleyes: (grown up, I see) ... this way I will own your share in the restaurant and it won't be an issue for you anymore if someone tips or not ;)

So tips aren't a reflection of appreciation of service done well but rather society's way of helping restaurant owners make more money by allowing them to pay less wages? I assure you, if I ever did have the (most likely unfortunate) pleasure of eating at one of your establishments, your companies poor service will be more important to me than simply making up for the waiters salary that you get to keep based on the "potential tips income" system.

Help me understand this. A tip should be better if service is good, but not worse if service is poor? If I give a substandard tip for substandard service, I will be unwelcome in the future, and you may assault me?

Tell you what, PM me the names of your restaurants and I'll save you the trouble of dealing with me even the first time.

yes. how hard is that to understand? does your salary go down if you have a bad day at work? give people a break once in a while.

The customer doesn't pay the salary, you do - we, the customers, provide what is in effect the performance related pay..... and like anyone else on performance related pay (with the possible exception of some in the banking industry) if you have a bad time at work it will effect your performance related bonus

I'd support the other posters here asking you to identify your restaurants so that we can be sure to pay your staff for you regardless of the service they provide, if only to avoid meeting your staff in the alley.

"stiffing a waiter because their service wasnt up to your expectations" may or may not be a "low class move" - threatening your customers because they have temerity to tip according to the service is certainly a low class move.

Finally, a lesson for you as a restaurateur, there is no need waste your time banishing customers who "stiff" your staff - "stiffing" your staff, as you call it, is one of the ways we, the paying public, use to tell you WE won't be back!

No, nor does it go up if I have a good day.

On the other hand, my compensation does go up when I have a good year, and down when I have a bad year, thanks to my bonus program. The difference is, when I have a bad year and get a poor bonus or no bonus, I suck it up and take responsibility for it. I don't threaten to take anyone out into the alley.

As long as tips are based on performance, poor service will deserve a poor tip. If you don't want tips based on the quality of service, tell your customers it's a fixed service charge.

you guys are all missing the point here. if you have a bad day at work and do not get your bonus you still make a living correct? alot of people do not understand that most service personel do not make more than a few bucks an hour. not enough to live on. tips are a part of their salary. as far as the alley comment...obviously no one is getting beat up for not tipping. i do not get paid to fight anymore.

That makes a lot of sense - in hotels one doesn't tip the bell staff more for bringing a piece of Louis Vuiton luggage to the room than they would for their Samsonite.

If my salary was based on commission - YES ... similar to waitstaff's tips being based on performance.

It's not US that don't get it - it's YOU. We are aware that restauranteurs supplement their employee's pay by relying on the kindness of their customers to tip the waitstaff. The thing you aren't getting is that is OPTIONAL not required, and is based on the quality of provided service. If the service isn't up to par, NOT leaving a tip is absolutely our option.

lol. it should be required. what i observe, in the real world, is people will always find something to complain about and you can never please every/anyone. read these forums..."i didnt get a pillow", my water was warm", "they forgot my ice", "i didnt get my upgrade". i'ts endless. to be honest i dont know how you folks who must fly for a living do it. i would kill someone. i was lucky enough to play a sport for a living. i got paid stupid amounts of money for doing something that really is not important in real life. i do not belong in the "upper class". i despise people who look poorly on others simply because of the job they may do. i have a huge soft spot for folks who are at the bottom of the labor ladder. i think they have a sh*t job trying to please people that can't be pleased. it never hurts to give someone the benefit of the doubt and the few extra dollars you throw someones way may be a big deal to them even if your eggs were a little runny. looking for ways to justify being cheap makes my skin crawl. alot of people here are flying on expense accounts anyway. not like it costs them anything. i understand that people work hard for their money and if they cannot afford to tip well then maybe they should eat at home. touchy subject with me and i guess that's my problem. my blood got boiling when a poster made a comment about "a poor server" as if to imply he was better than that person. if he did not mean it that way i am sorry i took it that way and do apologize. i also understand this is a public forum and we all will have many different views. not saying mine is right or wrong. it's just the way i see it.

Whilst it is OK to claim back the cost of a meal it is not always the case that an individual is able to claim back the tip via expenses unless there is a mandatory service charge.

I'm sorry for anyone who is forced to make their living from an occupation which pays below par wages and is forced to give 200% just to get a decent wage, but it does get out of hand. I recall a debate a few years back (on another forum) that centred around tipping of porters at US airports - the consensus of what was reasonable was such that I calculated that for a 40 hour week a porter working at an average rate could expect to earn over $150,000 dollars a year, in tips.

And about helping people out on performance related pay? Where will it end - Do I tip the salesperson of my car or furniture when I haggle the price down, knowing that the fact they have reduced the price for me may impact on their commission?

In the real world, I'd like to think that there are relatively few people who knock the tip down for relatively minor mistakes - but if things really do go wrong, and if it particularly is the fault of the wait staff you will NEVER convince me that I should pay the tip nomatter what. Even in places with a fixed service charge (and it has only happened once in 40+ years) I would be calling the GM over and negotiating the overall price I paid.

What it should simply be reflected in the menu prices - not a mandatory tip or service charge that only appears after you order (or requires you to do math.)

The ONLY financial advantage to the current system is that you don't pay sales tax on the tip amount.

The staff is never wrong and the management is never wrong?

Tell me, would this be the Bada Bing in Lodi, N.J.? :D

If it is, tipping the dancers is by hand exchange only.

I always tip, pre-taxable amt. You are the only other person I have come accross in years to share this viewpoint.

Whew! :D
really though-the reasoning behind this is that the waitstaff nor anyone involved in the preperation of your meal has any hand in the tax-it is just there regardless of the quality of the meal or the apptitude of the server.
No reason to include it when figuring the tip.

Yes, tipping on tax is just silly. Are they forwarding that part of the tip money to the "man"? ;)

I tip 20% on everything, including the tax. It's really not all that much, now is it?

However, I NEVER tip on top of the "included" tip amount - that's just a personal policy. And I'm very careful about reading the bill - I used to be a waiter too. ;)

I hold those who make arguments for skimping on tipping in very low regard. Very low regard. :mad:

I thought most people tipped on the pre-tax, not the post-tax amount?

I don't mind when they precalculate 15-18% on the post tax as long as the service is good, though, as I usually tip 20% for good service and while the tip amount goes up somewhat it is still less than 20% I'd tip otherwise.

What I WON'T do is tip up to 20% total if they precompute it.

If "just OK" service that I'd usually tip 15% on the pretax, it's a percent or two, and I'm not going to make a big deal about it except on a very large bill.

If it's worse than just OK, I might well talk to the manager.

1. Yes, tips are based on the pre tax amount.
2. Why do people forget that tips until about 20 years ago were 10% then they started saying 15%, then 18% and now 20% or MORE? It is like this your cost are 100%, labor is 18%, food cost is 28%, utilities 20% etc. and not to scale. Now they tell you that the percentage for labor, food and utilities is going up. Where does the increase come from? There is no such thing as going over the 100%, someone has to pay it. My point is that percentages should NOT increase. Prices on everything is continually going up so the dollar amount associated with that percentage is also going up.
3. Why have so many forgot what "TIPS" means. The letters stand for something you know. "To Improve Personal Service". That is personal service, you are paid according to that service. You don't provide, you don't deserve. (PERIOD)
4. Yes, I would like to know the names and locations of those restaurants too. I will definetly not be visiting and will pass the word, so please get them to me as well. Of course, I highly doubt that a true business man in the service industry would have that kind of an attitude. And I am sure that a business person with that attitude would not be successful. My suspicions are that it could be that the writer might just be a waiter:)

+1 ! ^

Folks are free to leave whatever they want of course.
But 15% on the pre tax amount is still the standard tip for normal/standard service.
The service lobby( :rolleyes: ) can try to promote a higher average than that-but it will never fly with me-and anyone else who does not buy into their propaganda.

With that said-I do tip more if the service is great and less if the service is poor.

I have also"stiffed" a server for outrageously poor service(it has to be really horrid for this to happen-and it has happned)and I have walked out of restaurants after/before placing an order if something is teriibly amiss(this has happned perhaps twice after placing an order-many times after not acknowladged in a respectable amount of time after being seated.

Many restaurant choices out there.And many folks working in the service industry probably should not be.The true gems should be rewarded generously.

$0.25 tips are much more effective than no tip, especially if you have the waiter get you change so that you can leave a quarter.

The reality is that the waiter is making TONS of CASH even if you factor in the occasional Zero Dollar tip. Waitstaff must take the good with the bad, and 'stiffing' is a reality.

Many people will be surprised to see the statistics. As a waiter, *a friend of mine* made about $100 per day in wages, about $65 after tax. In the high season *he* made a minimum (meaning NEVER LESS THAN) $300 tips per day, with $525 daily tips being *his* peak. This number is after sharing (lots of) *his* tips with the host and those helping *him* with *his* duties. This TIP income is virtually untaxed. I'll let you figure out why.

In a work year, *he* would have an average 100 day busy season, meaning $6500 of after tax wages and a Minimum of $30,000 of after tax tips, an average of $400/day with the remaining 270 days of the year off, if *he* so desired.

You can sing a sob story for the 'poor waiter', but I'm not buying it.

Bad service deserves little or no tip.

PS I was a waiter for 20 years, until recently.