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Uh....'do'?

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interesting posts - 20% is on the table?
 

I am a little flabbergasted by these tipping prices. I am not rich, my company does not pay for meals, nor do I usually go out to a restaraunt to eat. I go out mainly on two occassions: when my dad is in town and I would like to take him out, or when friends from out of town visit and we go out. I have always considered 15% a good tip and if the service is reasonable then that is what I give. When the service is very good I tip more, but I do not see 20% as reasonable, although I will now consider 15% standard after reading these posts. When did 15% become a standard tip, not just a good tip?

I have worked as a dishwasher and never got a tip and it never bothered me, but I did not see or interact with the customers. I would say that there is a sense of entitlement in these posts and think a 20% tip recommendation borders on ridiculous.

Double

I have to agree Happy...I was raised on the 10% for normal decent service and 15% for exceptional..."tip creep" is likely due to servers trying to make people feel as if they are cheap if they don't pony up a certain amount and it works on a lot of people.

It happens when people 'expect' or act entitled as you mentioned...I live in Central Europe and tipping is not standard here...but since the foreign tourists who don't know any better do it the servers now expect it from everyone and act like jerks when you don't. And...they get paid a normal wage without it so it isn't like the guy making 3usd per hour and needing the tips to make ends meet.

I totally disagree.
You can not compare two different kind of works. The most important duty for flight attendants is safety.
How is it then with pilots? Should we tip them before take-off so that the flight would be smooth and landing would be happy or just when exiting from the plane?
Firemen and police officers do not receive tips but they still do their job. The list is endless.

off topic but related when discussing service as above...I also take issue with FAs being touted as "Safety Personnel" and here is why...Police, Fire and EMS people get training and then use it daily...if you cannot perform you are not going to last (normally anyway there are always crack slippers)...yet an FA can go 30 years and never do anything but serve food and drinks...yet when things go south I am supposed to have confidence this person is going to be able to keep it together when they have never experienced true danger? Would you have confidence in a Paramedic that sat at a desk for 20 years then came to YOUR heart attack? They have never been truly tested as a LEO or Fireman has under real stress and I trust myself more than them to get myself out of a bad situation. I do not feel safer because of the FAs being on board.

Well said westcoastman ^

Well I only tip 20%, 20 percent of the tip. I tip 0% five percent of the time so in reality that only works out to 16% average when you take into consideration the poor service waitors that subsidize the good guys tips. Just a way so im keeping to about the 15% standard while rewarding those who do a good job by taking away from those that do a poor job.

Either those who have: A--worked in the service industry, or B ---those who have not :

How do you politely, clearly and diplomatically communicate UP Front that you will tip according to the above expressed standards ?
( because afterwards it is too late)

Couldn't agree with vesicle more. Quite frankly, if anything happens on an airplane, I'm dead. No "water landings" are going to happen. FAs are not here for my safety any more than I'm there for someone's safety at my restaurant just because I know CPR and the Heimlich Maneuver. FAs are there for service (as many non-American airlines will claim). Unfortunately, many don't care about said service, so use the safety argument as a cop-out.

Chris

I'm slightly confused by the question. Are you asking how you let the server know that you're tipping before tax as opposed to after tax so they don't get upset? Or are you asking how you subtly communicate that you're a "good table"?

Chris

I am shocked by the assertion I need to 'explain' my tipping to a server. They are there to serve me (hence the name) and I will pay for the service and tip that service as I see fit...good or bad.

Am I misunderstanding your question? If so apologies.

I've found this thread quite fantastically amusing and interesting.

I come from a culture where tipping is quite new (<20 years, if that). I think we only adopted it because of cultural creep. I still have many friends who get major attitude when either I tip, or they are expected to, and rightly so. We have a minimum wage which is somewhat liveable, and different social welfare systems to north america. For a fantastic meal here, I will leave a nice tip. However, I am also one who generally cannot claim back the tip from work. Therefore an expense of me having to work to pay for the meal I am forced to eat out for due to work, I have to personally pay the tip (I know, it doesnt seem to make sense, but if you read it again...).

I for one would love to see the US adopt a system where the price quoted was the price you paid. The amount of money that disappears on tips is really rather frightening to someone trying to live on a per diem that has to be explained away. 20% of a meal, twice a day may help a server pay their bills, but it also helps me to get into trouble when I put in my expenses. While not the servers problem, I have to tip the valet, the bag boy and fifteen other people that I get nothing back from work for. It all adds up far too quickly.

To be honest, the places I've had the best service in the US tend to be the restaurants that have quality in all they do: food; environment; staff. I am loathe to tip someone $10 when they've virtually slung my food down in front of me. I am any number of four letter words that you'd like to call me, but I will leave a $1 tip, and then explain to the manager why I feel bad for my wallet even leaving that. I have a major problem getting my head around the "paying someone extra for doing their job" aspect of tipping, however I can understand that being a cultural aspect. I don't, however, think it should ever be expect that I should have to tip someone because, even though they did a poor job, they are on minimum wage and have bills to pay. If I did my job poorly, I doubt my clients would be so kind as so think that. As the job of server being hard to do, I could totally see that. However are there that many servers who are good at what they do? And just because the servers job is hard, doesn't mean all those people sitting at the tables don't have their nose to grindstone either.

Some of the higher end restaurants here have actually gotten rid of casual staff, and every member is salaried. They do not rely on tips, and I believe in most the tips are spread evenly between all staff. It's certain not to work in all situations, but certainly makes for an interesting idea.

Oh, and I had a bottle of chateau d'yquem 2001 not long ago. And I didn't tip the server for it. But I did tip the sommelier :)

Agreed. The whole "tip" thing is just legitimised extortion.

^ great post abcederia

tipping is a cultural thing
 

I agree, great post abcederia. I feel the same in that a tip should not be paying someone extra for doing their job. Service is part of going to a restraurant. A tip is a gratuity, a gift, not mandatory.

I went out tonight for dinner (I am travelling, as in happytravelling) and was shocked, SHOCKED, I tell you to see a service charge on the bill. Okay, it was only 10% and I still left a tip on the table, but the server hovered at a respectfull distance and was great. You don't have this kind of service in the US.

I would like clarification on something that was posted earlier which might influence many people. Someone claimed that they received less than minimum wage as a server. I did not think this was legal, but if so, could someone explain if this is true?

This thread (along with most tipping threads on FT) totally cracks me up.

I'm not sure which part I found funnier "amateur diner" (vs professional diner?) or the thought that someone has to have a cash incentive in order to do their job properly.

Do people in the restaurant/bar industry tip their doctors? Their dentists? their UPS or Fedex delivery people? I hope so! :D

To define:

Amateur diner = waits in line for 2 hours to get a club sandwich and water with lemon, maybe a glass of White Zin if they're splurging

Experienced diner = aperitif/cocktail to start, wine with dinner, a couple courses, maybe an after dinner drink

And, quite frankly, I do think (more often than not) someone has to have a cash incentive to do their job properly. It might not be in tip form, but more often in salary form too. You can't tell me that the kid down the street working at McDonald's making his $5.15/hr is getting paid to provide great service. It's tough to motivate someone to want to do their job better when they're getting paid on that level.

The CEO of a company making 300K a year obviously has to provide some tangible benefits to those who provide his employment in order to keep his job and salary level. If the Board of Directors all of a sudden dropped his pay to 25K a year, you're telling me that he's really going to stay motivated to provide his shareholders with profits every quarter? Of course not. If people stopped providing him with the income to which he had become accustomed, he'd bail on that job in a heartbeat.

Unfortunately American society as we know it says that instead of getting a salary, servers get tipped. If everyone all of a sudden said "You know what? Screw it. This tipping thing is dumb," and stopped tipping and management didn't compensate, there would be no servers able to maintain a coherent conversation much less recommend a particular vintage of Insignia over another.

The point I raised earlier is that if everyone wants to vote and say "Hey, tipping is dumb. We're not going to do it anymore," management would in turn add 20% to every item on the menu, and then pay the servers with a check. It'd all work out the same for my bank account. But, I have the feeling everyone would start complaining about how much food now costs in a restaurant. The fact that you actually have the ability to pay that extra mark up in proportion to the level received should be looked upon as a benefit, not a curse. If you got crappy service after they raised the prices, you'd have no recourse but to just pay your bill that night and never return. At least with the current tipping culture you have the ability to decide for yourself.

This opinion is very much a cop-out. Those people all get paid a salary. I get paid nothing to work at the restaurant. I haven't gotten a check from the restaurant I work at in my five years of employment. If I get stiffed all night, I walk home with negative money. If I don't tip a UPS driver, he's still making at least $10/hr (guessing). If I don't tip a doctor or dentist, I think they can still afford their green fees.

I didn't create the system. I just try and educate people on the topic.

Chris

I don't believe you - you get NOTHING?
 

You don't get negative money, you get less money than if you had received more tips. With that sort of fuzzy thinking, is this how you believe you get NOTHING for being employed?

I posted a question asking if servers get less than minimum wage. Noone replied. I then did some research and found that at least in CA, mimimum wage applies to everyone,at least by law. If you are not bright enough to work for a place that gives you NOTHING, then you are not bright enough to educate people on the topic. Does anyone else want to comment on someone who works for NOTHING? Does the state (you can only live in the US with such an entitlement view) allow you to get less than minimum wage? Why do you continue to work there?

Explain this to me. As I asked in an earlier post, if servers do not even get minimum wage, then I am open to increasing my tips, but you, I do not believe.

I worked my way through college serving in a medium chain restaurant (think: better than Chillis, below Mortons).

JayhawkCO is completely truthfull that there are times where you could walk out of the restaurant with negative money. The restaurant only pays you $2.13/hour. The $2.13/hour quickly gets eaten at by tip-share and taxes. When your tip-share is a % of sales (and at our place usually $5-$10 per food runner, regardless of how busy it was) its very easy to get into the negative territory on a bad night. The restaurant in essence doesn't pay you "nothing" but your tips are subsidizing their meager wages to those who don't directly earn tips (bussers, etc.) through tip-shares, which push you into negative earnings.

Someone commented earlier about declaring cash tips for taxes. Many restaurants are now on electronic systems. At our restaurant if you went below a certain threshold of reporting cash tips you'd get written up. The restaurant knew on average you'd make at least 12% after all tip-outs so if you declared less than that you could get in-trouble or fired.

For anyone who thinks a 15% tip before tax is a "good" tip, you're wrong. If I got 15% pre-tax (so lets call it 13% post tax) I probably would not have been too happy. 15-20% after tax was OK and above was very nice.

Servers remember the bad tippers too, so beware. ;-) As I think they said in the movie Waiting "Don't f*** with those who are handling your food!"

truth appears to be in the eye of the beholder
 

As I said before and you have reinforced, you don't get negative money, you get less money than if you had received more tips. Maybe you are imagining this as "I get less money than if I had received minimum wage"?

That being said, I do appreciate the first response to my question as to whether servers get below minimum wage. And you should beware too. If you find that you sit in jail awaiting trial for f*** with a customers food, you will have ample opportunity to ask yourself "was it worth it"? I doubt your explanation will sit well in court.

I still don't totally agree with your view on the topic. I do not get paid anything extra to do my job properly. The incentive is my salary, which is what I am contractually obliged to do. If I do not do my job, I do not only get a proportion of my salary, as you suggest servers should, I get given the arse. You are totally correct with saying, that you can't motivate on a poor wage. You get what you pay for. And to be quite honest, the majority of underpaid servers that I've had the pleasure of dealing with aren't simply underpaid, but are underskilled, and not going to get a decent tip. If everyone started tipping 18% to all servers, would the surly attitudes be replaced with smiles and good service? Somehow, I doubt it. You pay bad, you get bad staff. Having said that, I have also gotten some fantastic service in places which can only be considered absolute dives. People that go above and beyond their basic duties of supplying me with a service that a) they signed up for and b) I am lead to expect by eating in a restaurant I have no problem in leaving a large tip. What constitutes a large tip is really a useless argument, because it differs between each person so much.

Again I say that I would have no problem with the cost of service being included in the cost of a dish. If I got pathetic servce, then you are totally incorrect in saying that I have no recourse other to pay the bill and not return. When I order from a menu, I am entering into a contract with the establishment to pay for an item. If the price of service is included in that item, I am then also paying for that, and thus the establishment is obligated to provide it. Don't for one second think I would pay the entire amount of a bill if I recieved substandard service. That is my legal recourse.

I am *not* a bad tipper. I am not an uncaring, ....... of a person. Well, sure, some people would disagree with that, but they tend to be loved ones. However if tipping is a legal requirement, then it should be built into the cost so I know the final cost when I order something. And if tipping is at my discretion, then thats exactly what it is. It is not "at my discretion as long as I tip at least 18% if they bring my food before its colder than a polar bears left ear and more if they manage to smile once and not give me a lapfull of clam chowder".

I think this is the crux of my opinion
 

Service is part of what you pay for at a restaraunt, regardless of the spin that is being placed on tipping now. That is what a gratuity means - above and beyond the price of goods and services rendered. Don't be fooled by the implicit statements here that service is not part of the price.

I again agree with abcedaria - I have worked at places, where if you DO NOT DO A GOOD JOB, you will be asked to leave. They do not give extra money for doing your job - you are expected to do a good job. Doing a good job is implicit in expecting to continue to be employed, regardless of whether the business actually enforces this view. Again, however, I would point out that some states apparently allow pay to be below minimum wage, although I do not believe this to be the case in California. Knowing that, I can accomodate a higher tip in some states, but not California unless I learn otherwise.

Then there is the threat implied by one poster saying that they will f** with a customers food if they receive bad tips and the customers return another day. You can understand the reaction of the average person - this is now EXTORTION. If I don't give them what they expect in a tip, they are going to f*** with my food! As they sit in jail awaiting trial, they can ponder the fact that they will in fact be getting "negative wages" because they are not working.

I believe your explanation, although technically accurate, is not a viable argument.

Let's take your example and use it else where

You say that if you get stiffed all night, you make negative money.

If a hotel has bookings and they all no show, they will make negative money, paying staff, electric while receiving no revenue... but the hotel has few no-shows and they do make money

If an airline has bookings and the pax all don't show, the flight loses money. But only some passengers no show and the flight goes on.

If a bank suddenly has everyone with drawl all their money, they wouldn't have enough to operate. But if only a few people withdraw, they still operate and make money.

IF ALL YOUR CUSTOMERS LEFT NO TIP, I agree you would lose money for that day. But how many times has that happened. I'd think it's just as the examples above. Some customers leave nothing, no show for hotels and airplanes, withdraw from the bank. But, I'm willing to bet you make umpteen times more than you've ever lost. On the average, I'd say a waiter makes more than most people would believe.

minimum wages per state - including service workers
 

I am posting this because I have not heard a reply from anyone about
what the minimum wages are for a service worker.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/programs/whd/...d.htm#Illinois

I would think the state law trumps federal law, but I am guessing.

Very interesting numbers. Thank you, happytravelling.

You know, JayhawkCO, if I were you, I think I would move out of Kansas and find a job in California, Oregon or Washinton.

Just out of curiosity, do you folks think we should tip less in states that do not allow tip credits against the minimum wage?

Actually, that sounds more like a drunk. I wouldn't want to have people like that driving to and from a restaurant -- they'd be well over the legal limit.

Portions of the post that previously appeared in this space has been deleted. I would provide you with a reason why, but doing so would likely be against the TOS.

While I don't know that I would label such a person a "drunk"belive me when I tell you that I know more about food and restaurant service than 80% (or more)than than the customers JayhawkCO is idolizing for the amount of alcohol they are consuming.

Its not a cop out all all. And you don't need to educate the "amateur" diners.

The reality is that there aren't many formal qualifications to be waiter. You need to have a decent personality, the ability to multitask, and be willing to work nights. As with most jobs that don't require a lot experience, education, or "up front work", the supply of people willing to do the job outstrips the number of jobs available. The jobs are demanding, so the turnover is high.

Being a doctor or dentist requires years of schooling and hard work before you get to pay those greens fees. Being a CEO in most cases requires 4 to 6 years of college (undergrad and graduate degrees), and years of "working your way up" in a company.

Anyone can go be a waiter in an Applebees or a Denny's tomorrow. And I imagine that after a few years they could gain enough experience (or contacts) to get a chance at a higher salary by waiting at a more upscale restaurant. The same applies to a UPS or FedEx employee working years in a distribution center sorting boxes before getting the chance at earning that higher salary driving the truck.

So, please, accept the fact that you're in a job where the supply of people willing to do the job outstrips the number of jobs available, accept the fact that you don't need to spend years in school to qualify for your job, accept the fact that you're working "on spec" (you can hit a home run one night and get screwed the next).

But don't whine about a "flawed system."

You clearly have no sense of humor about a quote from a funny movie about the serving industry.

FWIW - there was a court case last year in New York state about mandatory tipping. A guy was arrested when he refused to pay the mandatory tip added to the bill for his large group. The judge threw it out because tips can't be mandatory.

OTOH - when with a group I like it when they auto-add it. Especially if there's more than one person paying.

No I don't
 

Telling me to beware that the server might f*** with my food if I do not give a good tip is not funny at all. I didn't recognize the "quote" and don't know what movie he was talking about, but it sounded like a threat. What movie is he quoting from?

Actually, I was a server in Seattle too. It's true that you get paid $7.63 an hour before your tips. But instead of tipping out 3% of my sales as I do in KS, it was closer to 10%. It all equals out.

If having three drinks makes you a drunk, you should see some of the teetotalers that come in my restaurant. A party of two might have a martini before dinner, share a bottle of wine, and then have a glass of port after dinner. Scandalous, I know.

Certainly not. You have to understand there is a difference between eating and dining. Eating is grabbing a sandwich and a coke. Dining is taking the time to make the dinner itself part of the entertainment. Some restaurants (Chili's, Applebee's, T.G.I.F., etc.) cater towards "eaters". High-volume, quick entrees (often fried). Other restaurants (Capital Grille, Morton's, Ruth's, etc.) cater toward "diners". People are going to come out to dinner and take their time to enjoy themselves. No one hops over to Morton's to quick "grab a filet", but people certainly do pop over to Applebee's to "grab a burger". I didn't mean to sound insulting when I used the term "amateur diner", but if you work at a restaurant where people come in and "dine", and instead have someone coming in just to "eat", you would see where there would be a distinction made.

I don't idolize people for their alcohol consumption. If that were the case I'd hang out at the local college campus far more often, so please don't put words in my mouth. And you may very well know more about the industry than those people I referred to as "professional diners". But, if you know as much about the industry as you claim, you would know that tipping 15% before tax is no longer the "industry standard" for good service.

Again, I am making no claims whether or not the current tipping system is flawed, perfect, or otherwise. If I couldn't accept the risks and rewards of the job I would probably actually be using my degree. The fact remains I make more money at my current job than I would make at an entry level position with my B.A. If I actually knew what direction I wanted to head with my career, I would be in that field. Unfortunately I don't, so I might as well be making money at a job with a flexible schedule in the meantime. (Allows me to make those MRs ;))

The only thing I'm trying to do in this thread is to educate those that think we're a) getting paid tons of money in addition to tips (we're not, actually none) and b) think that not tipping on some portion of a meal is indifferent to their server (it actually makes him/her lose money).

Chris

You have done your job
 

You have forced me to look into this and I have learned what the minimum wages are for service persons, which I did not know before. The discussions have been most interesting and although there has been a lot of posturing, I have learned something and will give more thought to tipping (but not 20-25%). You have educated some of us and given me a new perspective, so thank you.

Not 3 drinks -- 2 drinks and 1/2 bottle of wine. That's a lot of booze. I'm not a "teetotaler", but even when I'm in Las Vegas and the casino is picking up the whole meal (and I'm not driving anywhere), I don't drink that much with a meal (by the way, I --not the casino pay the tip, usually 20-25% or more). It's either the pre-dinner drink or wine (although I prefer water with meals).

Now that you mention Ruth's Chris Steak House, it reminded me that that was the location of the worst food and the worst service that I have ever experienced. I know that folks who don't eat red meat should probably steer clear of steak houses, but I was going there to dine with friends. I paid the same price as those folks who ordered steaks and was given a plate with six disgusting looking blobs of over cooked vegetables. :( :(

We were a large group and a number of folks in our group did not show. We were happy to pitch in and pay for those uneaten meals, but when we asked if we could have those steaks, the wait staff became totally indignant and refused to even consider the possibility that we should be allowed to take that food we paid for.

That experience soured me so completely that I have refused to step foot in Ruth's Chris ever since.

Now that I think about it, every "famous" expensive steak house in which I have ever eaten, with the exception of the Metropolitan Grill in Seattle (which is fantastic no matter what one orders), has been a huge disappointment.

"But, if you know as much about the industry as you claim, you would know that tipping 15% before tax is no longer the "industry standard" for good service."
Might I kindly offer a kind word? Bu@@S##t :D
The standard has not changed my friend.Things have gotten more expensive-so that 15% might not have the purchasing power that it once did.But food in most places has gone up also-so it is a wash.

And again 15% is a standard for standard service.Not my problem if your employer is greedy and makes you pay his labor cost.And you can always increase your tip by giving me great service.

"The only thing I'm trying to do in this thread is to educate those that think we're a) getting paid tons of money in addition to tips (we're not, actually none) and b) think that not tipping on some portion of a meal is indifferent to their server (it actually makes him/her lose money)."
Some might feel that there is another motive in this-but that might be considered cynical.