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DeathSlam Oct 28, 2019 1:13 pm


Originally Posted by sophialite (Post 31665145)
The loss of all three stars by Araki seems correct.

They have reset based on Araki-san's return to Japan. I think that's fair.
Based on reviews, pictures and price I won't be dining there.
With only 10 covers it's no surprise they charge what they do.

I've been to the nearby 2* Umu which is a very different experience. Kaiseki rather than just sushi. I didn't feel it merited those stars but that might have been because of my meal choices. They have *a lot* of seats in comparison and about half the price.

IMO sushi only places *can* be deserving of 3 stars. I've been to a few and at least two of those were (again IMO) clearly 3*. If you took someone there who didn't know about the stars they would say "That was amazing" in a stunned manner at the end of the meal.

HKTraveler Oct 29, 2019 8:33 am


Originally Posted by offerendum (Post 31669147)
Generelly very sceptical how a sushi-place shall earn 3 stars. Also many seem to lost every sense for reality regarding prices. Often price is justfied with rare fish, something I not even wonna support.

Why can’t sushi be 3 stars places? Not sure I understand the reasoning here

offerendum Oct 29, 2019 10:42 am


Originally Posted by HKTraveler (Post 31677555)
Why can’t sushi be 3 stars places? Not sure I understand the reasoning here

Don´t say it can´t but I´m sceptical. I can´t see very much cooking with classical Sushi.

HKTraveler Oct 29, 2019 12:08 pm


Originally Posted by offerendum (Post 31678081)
Don´t say it can´t but I´m sceptical. I can´t see very much cooking with classical Sushi.

Yes, not much cooking aside from some specific items like abalone, shrimps, eel, .... but it takes just as much skill to be a good sushi chef as any other types of chef. Think fish selection (sardine season now in Japan so which port has the best sardines?), aging (most fish are aged for a few hours to a few days), rice preparation (which type of vinegar and which type of rice, some chef use different types for different fishes), fish cutting (which part to serve and how to cut, how thick and how large), course progression (which piece first?), seasoning (shoyu, wasabi, ginger, scallion, shallots, ....), .... There are so many factors going into fine dining sushi!

DeathSlam Oct 29, 2019 12:29 pm


Originally Posted by offerendum (Post 31678081)
Don´t say it can´t but I´m sceptical. I can´t see very much cooking with classical Sushi.

They have to get there by different means.
There are plenty of 3* places that have got there by a sense of theatre, some who have got their primarily because of the room and service as much as the food. The only way you can do it with Sushi is by ingredient selection, craft in rice preparation, knife skills and a few special touches that set you apart from the competition. Cheffy presentation on 'not plates' with foams and pearls is one thing, but it's not what makes me personally rate a place.
Sushi Yoshitake in Tokyo and Sushi Shikon in Hong Kong are both excellent.
I haven't been to the former in a long time, and I haven't been to the latter since it's recent move but I never regretted the cost of those meals.
[Shikon was supposed to be going to a bigger venue but the Mandarin Oriental must have convinced him to keep the traditional counter + 1 private room format. I'm glad. The price has remained the same as when he was in the Mercer which was a bit of a hole really.]
I do agree though that there are some massively over-hyped and over-valued sushi places. It's all a matter of personal taste and preference in the end, and 'advertising' affects us all, generating expectations, promising experiences...
Some of the photos I've seen on TripAdvisor for the recent sushi at The Araki London were quite poor IMO. Even the arrangement of the ingredients in the boxes prior to prep seemed slack. You wouldn't ever see that at the places I mentioned. The theatre and precision of the prep is part of the experience.

I'm still looking for the perfect roast chicken. Can French Onion Soup, Roast Chicken and Creme Brule ever make a Michelin meal? I live in hope. Bouillabaisse has made it. Bao of various descriptions have made it. Food done to perfection will always be worth a special trip for me :)

HKTraveler Oct 29, 2019 1:11 pm


Originally Posted by DeathSlam (Post 31678545)
[Shikon was supposed to be going to a bigger venue but the Mandarin Oriental must have convinced him to keep the traditional counter + 1 private room format. I'm glad. The price has remained the same as when he was in the Mercer which was a bit of a hole really.]

At the Mandarin, Kaki-San is running both Shikon and the new kappo restaurant. Tbh, I prefer Sushi Masataka over Shikon and haven’t tried Shikon at the new location yet. But will have to soon since Masataka himself left the restaurant and hasn’t opened up his new place yet. So I am out of a fine dining sushi place. Uehara is also very good in HK

DeathSlam Oct 29, 2019 2:03 pm


Originally Posted by HKTraveler (Post 31678746)
At the Mandarin, Kaki-San is running both Shikon and the new kappo restaurant.

Thanks for the info

Originally Posted by HKTraveler (Post 31678746)
Tbh, I prefer Sushi Masataka over Shikon

From the photos they look very similar, very similar price as well, so that might be backing OPs point rather than opposing it :)

Originally Posted by HKTraveler (Post 31678746)
Uehara is also very good in HK

Not heard of this place before. It does look good, but I wouldn't put the presentation at the top level. We're getting into esoterics here. A gaping knife slice here, an imbalanced presentation there. I have no reason to believe it is not as delicious as the other places we've talked about. It's also a bit out of the way for a lot of folks. But thanks for the recommendation, I don't mind travelling for good food.
I can't see their pricing. I presume they're not HKD 3500?

Given I'm not based in Asia, I'm having to think would I be better heading to HK and the new Saito or just push on to Japan and the more numerous and cheaper top quality options there. If there was ever a body of people to give an informed opinion on that question I think I'm in the right place :)

HKTraveler Oct 30, 2019 9:44 am


Originally Posted by DeathSlam (Post 31678995)
I can't see their pricing. I presume they're not HKD 3500?



It is about half that price so some of the deficiencies are forgiven. It is also the place where the Japanese expats go for good sushi

offerendum Oct 31, 2019 3:25 pm

London: Core by Claire Smith 2 stars
 
Claire Smith was in the past chef at Gorden Ramsey at Hospital Road were she was awarded with 3 Michelin stars. I visited in 2012 and really enjoyed my meal. So I was really excited to try her own restaurant Core which received 2 Michelin stars.
The restaurant is located at Notting Hill. We entered the restaurant and were first seated at the bar till our table was ready. As the restaurant was mostly empty this time not really logical. This bar seating seems to be a new trend which I don´t like.
The first restaurant room is split in 2 parts. One is a big table which acts as chefs table. Behind a glass wall is the open kitchen.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...8d9083c27c.jpg
The second room is the main dining room which is furnished mainly in white colors. The table were very nicely decorated.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...33861a46bb.jpg
Our meal started with beautiful looking small bites which also tasted very good.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...6f53685250.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...f29687d1e8.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...9bf7637ee5.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...f86fa00e66.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...61253b91eb.jpg
Butter
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...9a6687dca9.jpg
We decided to take the Core Classic menu (125 GBP) and contained no meat this evening.
Isle of Mull scallop tartare
sea vegetable Consommé
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...54eb3473b9.jpg
'Cheese and onion'
alliums, aged cheddar and onion broth

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...47f4eb6a6e.jpg
‘Potato and roe’
dulse beurre blanc, herring and trout roe
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...789271afa5.jpg
Roasted monkfish
Morecambe bay shrimps, Swiss chard, brown butter
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...62a219cfe7.jpg
I can´t remember what the following 2 courses were excactly.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...c75414089e.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...98d2f87cfe.jpg
‘Core apple’
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...ddbfa673b9.jpg
Pear and verbena
poire Williams sorbet
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...a73fe9560a.jpg
Petit fours
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...7e814f859c.jpg
The meal was really really god, in my eyes the best I had in London this time. Without saying too much About my upcoming meals at Gordon Ramsey and Alain Ducasse I can´t understand the 2 star rating here while the 2 formentioned hold 3 stars. The food at Core was in my eyes simply better. I can absolutely recommend Core, it´s a very good restaurant.

EuropeanPete Nov 4, 2019 2:52 pm

Core does look exactly my kind of fine dining from reviews and from seeing your photos. I actually tried to go on a recent trip to London, but it's understandably a bit too popular for one of my usual last minute trips. I ended up at Sketch Gallery (the newly 3* minted Sketch library was unsurprisingly full) which has unfortunately gotten uncomfortably "instagrammy" since I was last there and is no longer such a fun place to hang out and just enjoy the scenery. So. Many. Girls. With. iPhones.

offerendum Nov 5, 2019 5:58 am


Originally Posted by EuropeanPete (Post 31701069)
Core does look exactly my kind of fine dining from reviews and from seeing your photos. I actually tried to go on a recent trip to London, but it's understandably a bit too popular for one of my usual last minute trips. I ended up at Sketch Gallery (the newly 3* minted Sketch library was unsurprisingly full) which has unfortunately gotten uncomfortably "instagrammy" since I was last there and is no longer such a fun place to hang out and just enjoy the scenery. So. Many. Girls. With. iPhones.

Sketch wasn´t really on my list (had nevertheless "timeproblems" as I had "only" 8 evenings), will try it next time.Like also to try Claude Bosi at Bibendum, mainly for the setting.

Core is indeed a relaxed and a very nice experience.

Bohemian1 Nov 5, 2019 10:22 am

Claude Bosi has been exceptional the last two times I was there.

zip10001 Nov 5, 2019 3:57 pm

Trois Mec in West Hollywood
 
https://www.troismec.com

* Michelin star, owned by French chef Ludo Lefevre.

Small restaurant, maybe 8 seats at the counter facing the open kitchen, and another dozen table seats.
We got the 5-course menu, which comes with many small bites, priced $110.

Only complain: we felt a bit rushed, we got there at 6.25 pm and paid the bill at 7.50 pm. For $330 including drinks & tips, I expect to have the time to enjoy the meal.




Amuse-bouches/bite-size:




-melon shaved ice, saffron syrup, chorizo cream

-mustard crème brûlée

-crispy tapioca, passion fruit




Trois Mec Pizza (with pesto sauce)




Course 1:

Avocado sushi, salted cod, lime vinaigrette




Course 2:

Mushroom cappucino, caramelized egg yolk





Course 3:

Steamed turbot, cabbage, xéres, bee pollen




Course 4:

Crispy duck breast, walnut hummus, liquorice root




Pre-dessert:

Charcoal ice-cream, candied turnip (ok, I must say that it was simply a nasty dish)




Dessert:

Apple butter, creme de brie, toasted barley, hay




Petits fours:

Mango mochi

Chocolate tart


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...4065fe8f5.jpeg
Shave ice, with delicious chorizo cream


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...78240b357.jpeg
Crispy tapioca


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...d2f807c1f.jpeg

Mustard crème brûlée


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...62c254da6.jpeg
Steamed turbot


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...31a5c196a.jpeg
Duck breast



https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...188847431.jpeg
Apple butter, creme de brie, toasted barley, hay

gengar Nov 5, 2019 11:46 pm


Originally Posted by offerendum (Post 31687593)
Without saying too much About my upcoming meals at Gordon Ramsey and Alain Ducasse I can´t understand the 2 star rating here while the 2 formentioned hold 3 stars. The food at Core was in my eyes simply better. I can absolutely recommend Core, it´s a very good restaurant.

Thanks for the review and pictures - I'm definitely adding Claire Smith to my list, even though I don't typically do fine dining in London.

As far as 'understanding' the rating discrepancy, I'm sure you do completely understand why. It's just not an answer that anyone likes.

offerendum Nov 6, 2019 12:16 pm

Yauatcha Soho London 1 star (now plate)
 
We had in September lunch at Yauatcha Soho. It had one star at this time, in the 2020 guide it was relegated to a plate.
The restaurant is modern, the tables are placed near to each other. At least at Lunchtime it was Incredible noisy, some may say an authentic Asian atmosphere.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...86b42cb939.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...c17a94b755.jpg
They have a lunch menu which is very good value but we choosed a selection a la carte.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...ce754dd179.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...83bd6a0fb3.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...a1afcc0ad9.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...1674b95f41.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...fcf84f2ac0.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...14cf8605a9.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...8cfff59540.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...0a64758596.jpg


Dessert was some sweet soup.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...f04fa43ffc.jpg
We liked out Lunch and I can´t really understand why the star was deleted. Food wise at was at least on one level with other starred restaurants I tried in the past. But it´s not the only decision I can´t understand in the 2020 London guide…...

JBord Nov 7, 2019 4:00 pm


Originally Posted by zip10001 (Post 31572821)
On a recent trip to Barcelona, we decided to visit the 1 Michelin-star restaurant Cinc Sentits (translated to "Five Senses"). It advertises as a "Modern Catalan" cuisine with a strong focus on local ingredients.

They offer 2 menus: short menu priced 99 euros, long menu 119 euros.

We went for the short menu, about 2 hour-long:
-tapas in the 'lounge area' with a glass of Vermouth
-bread basket (so good!)
-4 small dishes
-1 pre-dessert
-1 dessert

I was there in early September, maybe we were there the same night :). We did the long menu. We thought it was very good, not the best 1 star we've been to though. Honestly, although I enjoyed all the courses, my favorite part of the meal was the Vermouth with the 3 bites to start. It was just a unique way to start a meal in my opinion -- assuming you had the same 3 bites, the one I thought was really creative was the olive!

offerendum Nov 9, 2019 8:38 am

London: Veeraswamy 1 star
 
We visited Veeraswamy, the UK´s oldest Indian restaurant, open since 1926. It holds 1 Michelin star and I was excited to compare it to Quilon.
The restaurant is located on the mezzanine floor of Victory House at Regent Street. The flag is from the restaurant.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...b15f60f1dc.jpg
The restaurant is furnished classical.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...b80fd8db59.jpg
They also have a nice private dining room.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...3fc22670d6.jpg
They offer a pre-thearte menu which is relative cheap with 35 GBP. We took it as it offered dishes we wanted to try anyway.
First course: Lentil soup (unadapted on the menu since 1926):
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...2919281d5d.jpg
I took Paneer (Indian cottage cheese) in an onion and tomato sauce as main course, the bread I ordered additional.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...bf74139fd3.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...98063fdbfb.jpg
GF ordered Seabass fillets marinated with royal cumin and mint, wrapped in banana leaf and baked.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...d2b9e4501f.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...35b94b6fdb.jpg
We liked the Paneer more as the fish was a little bit bland without real sauce.
Dessert were ice.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...ed9b7f0f00.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...4001d7ca10.jpg
The cooking was classical and fine. Personally I liked my meal at Quilon more, as I found the food more "fancy". Nevertheless it´s a good restaurant.

DetailsIM Nov 13, 2019 9:01 am

Wife and I are pondering on returning to Alinea in Jan (we just went this past April). Have any of you done their top tier reserve wine pairing? We did the middle one and for the most part, enjoyed it. We split the pairing and I thought the pours were a bit on the light side.

Aside from that, we are thinking of trying Blackbird, Acadia, and Spiaggia.

offerendum Nov 18, 2019 1:06 pm

Madame Pic London 1 star (now 2 stars)
 
We had dinner at Madame Pic, the Four Seasons Trinity Square fine dining restaurant. At the time of our visit it hold 1 Michelin star, in the 2020 Michelin it now holds 2 Michelin stars.
The restaurant is furnished modern and the tables were decorated nicely. It´s definitively fashionable.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...81c23b5e66.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...f9b67dd759.jpg
We started with some small bites and bread with beautiful presented butter.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...9cfc9cd87d.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...31305bd707.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...99dd712826.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...89f6b2a95f.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...676e0311fa.jpg
The bites were pretty good but nothing memorable.
We started with different textures of tomato.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...ce8b713483.jpg
It was pretty good but again it didn´t blow me away.
Next came lobster.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...80a6acdf22.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...050193de41.jpg
It was nice and the best dish of the menu.
3rd course was blue cheese with white chocolate.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...82edc5a81f.jpg
To be honest this dish simply didn´t taste well and I think it didn´t really match. They sold it as a whole course, I think you need humor to call it a full course.
Now the dessert. I took their signature dessert, the White Millefeuille. Tahitian vanilla cream, Jasmine jelly and Voatsiperifery pepper foam.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...47352e9556.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...9d4f0f3e3a.jpg
I didn´t like it. It was too sweet and didn´t say me much.
Itakujy chocolate - chocolate cremeux and passion fruit sorbet.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...05b3d8742e.jpg
It was better and pretty nice.
Petit fours.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...9c2405ce85.jpg
OK, my birthday was 2 days later but why not....
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...a62c7076dd.jpg
Well, how did I like the meal? First with 95 GBP for our 4 course menu it was compared to other London restaurants not cheap. I remember the dinner as a not very memorable 1 star dinner. Surely not bad but nothing I would normally visit again. When I saw they were awarded 2 stars I first thought I didn´t read correctly. If this is a 2 star I even more can´t undertsand 2 star ratings of Core and Ledbury. For me absolutely no 2 star restaurant.

offerendum Nov 21, 2019 7:02 pm

The new Italian Michelin is out. Regarding the restaurants I visited there are two changes:
- Glam Venice now holds 2 stars. Justified in my eyes
- Wintergarden by Caino lost its star. Very very justified in my eyes

PsiFighter37 Nov 24, 2019 9:47 am


Originally Posted by DeathSlam (Post 31674845)
They have reset based on Araki-san's return to Japan. I think that's fair.

Sushi Ginza Onodera in NYC also dropped a star because of the main chef relocating to Toronto. That said, I had lunch there a couple weeks back, and the meal was still absolutely phenomenal...a steal for $10 per course, gratuity included, at lunch.

offerendum Nov 25, 2019 2:28 pm

Gordon Ramsay at Hospital Road London 3 star
 
I visited Gordon Ramsay around 7 years ago when Claire Smith was still chef. It still holds 3 stars at Michelin.
We started with some small bites:
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...f68009f914.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...99a0cfdbdf.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...cd59620353.jpg
Mocktails:
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...cd56290c97.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...5623549f7a.jpg
They they hadn´t a fitting tasting menu we choosed a la carte. Advantage was we could try different things.
First course: Scallops from the Isle of Skye - Ajo Blanco, Verjus, olive oil
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...894ab5ece4.jpg
and Ravioli - Lobster, langoustine, Salmon, sorrel
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...ca1a01e62d.jpg
Both dishes were solid, personally I liked the Ravioli a Little bit mor.
Main course: Lobster
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...9136c6b151.jpg
and John Dory - carrot, fennel, cockles, vadouvan
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...8bdfc80721.jpg
The lobster was the better dish, the John Dory not so great.
As the food was not very much (130 GBP were not that cheap for it) I decided to take an additional cheese course. Unfortunately I did what I often do when I take cheese. I ask for a selection through the trolley. What they did was one of the most boring selections ever I got at a 3 star restaurant. Side was a piece of bread, no chutneys or so. Sad…..
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...72de17038d.jpg
Pre-dessert
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...d5f0f8a74b.jpg
Dessert: Banoffee souffle
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...43c4ac5232.jpg
Gran Cru 75% chocolate
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...78c32b7dd7.jpg
Petit fours:
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...571db4f151.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...4fe1df7111.jpg
The meal was good, but not great. Personally I liked both Ledbury and Core more. For me Gordon Ramsay is a solid 2 star but no 3 star.

MicSanToro Nov 27, 2019 6:55 pm

Interesting there hasn't been any discussion on this yet: https://robbreport.com/food-drink/di...stars-2883698/

Both Sukiyabashi Jiro and Sushi Saito (both previously 3*) have been dropped by the Michelin guide because they don't allow public reservations. You either need to be a regular, a guest of a regular, or (and only if you are very lucky, this isn't a guarantee) staying at one of Tokyo's best hotels (Aman, MO, Pen etc.) and get the concierge to book you a seat.

Thoughts?

HKTraveler Nov 27, 2019 7:44 pm


Originally Posted by MicSanToro (Post 31784071)
Interesting there hasn't been any discussion on this yet: https://robbreport.com/food-drink/di...stars-2883698/

Both Sukiyabashi Jiro and Sushi Saito (both previously 3*) have been dropped by the Michelin guide because they don't allow public reservations. You either need to be a regular, a guest of a regular, or (and only if you are very lucky, this isn't a guarantee) staying at one of Tokyo's best hotels (Aman, MO, Pen etc.) and get the concierge to book you a seat.

Thoughts?

Am surprised they didn't change earlier. And doubt they care about the stars at all. After all, they won't have any problems filling their seats and I hope more Japanese restaurants go this route since some bookings are getting so hard to come by

DeathSlam Nov 28, 2019 11:03 am


Originally Posted by HKTraveler (Post 31784180)
Am surprised they didn't change earlier. And doubt they care about the stars at all. After all, they won't have any problems filling their seats and I hope more Japanese restaurants go this route since some bookings are getting so hard to come by

I agree they won't be bothered by the loss of stars. In fact they probably welcome it as it stops wealthy but culturally and culinary naive foreigners showing up. I wonder if Amex would be able to make bookings? Probably not by the sound of that article.

gengar Nov 28, 2019 12:26 pm


Originally Posted by MicSanToro (Post 31784071)
Interesting there hasn't been any discussion on this yet: https://robbreport.com/food-drink/di...stars-2883698/

Both Sukiyabashi Jiro and Sushi Saito (both previously 3*) have been dropped by the Michelin guide because they don't allow public reservations. You either need to be a regular, a guest of a regular, or (and only if you are very lucky, this isn't a guarantee) staying at one of Tokyo's best hotels (Aman, MO, Pen etc.) and get the concierge to book you a seat.

Thoughts?

They should pretty much drop half the list then.


Originally Posted by HKTraveler (Post 31784180)
Am surprised they didn't change earlier. And doubt they care about the stars at all. After all, they won't have any problems filling their seats and I hope more Japanese restaurants go this route since some bookings are getting so hard to come by

I don't think these places are going to become any easier to book. The whole reason to go invite/connection-only is precisely to avoid all the legions of lazy tourists who pick restaurants just based on stars.

offerendum Nov 29, 2019 2:18 am


Originally Posted by gengar (Post 31785841)
lazy tourists who pick restaurants just based on stars.

What´s wrong with it?

sophialite Nov 29, 2019 3:47 am


Originally Posted by offerendum (Post 31787050)
What´s wrong with it?

Think for yourself and develop your own tastes.

Kgmm77 Nov 29, 2019 3:52 am


Originally Posted by gengar (Post 31785841)
They should pretty much drop half the list then.



I don't think these places are going to become any easier to book. The whole reason to go invite/connection-only is precisely to avoid all the legions of lazy tourists who pick restaurants just based on stars.

You do realise that is exactly the raison d’etre of the guide for the last 120 odd years? To guide travellers on where to get a good meal whilst travelling in areas that are unfamiliar to them.:confused:

gengar Nov 29, 2019 4:45 am


Originally Posted by offerendum (Post 31787050)
What´s wrong with it?

I don't think there's anything wrong with it (other than being suboptimal to the reader as the Michelin Guide is often full of #*$!) - the context was speaking from the perspective of Japanese restaurants that engage in the practice (again, not that I agree with or condone).

sophialite Nov 29, 2019 6:12 am


Originally Posted by Kgmm77 (Post 31787167)
You do realise that is exactly the raison d’etre of the guide for the last 120 odd years? To guide travellers on where to get a good meal whilst travelling in areas that are unfamiliar to them.:confused:

I don’t think these points are inconsistent. If anything the argument is that the guide should drop more restaurants if that’s the rationale they used for dropping Jiros.

Kgmm77 Nov 29, 2019 8:15 am


Originally Posted by sophialite (Post 31787354)
I don’t think these points are inconsistent. If anything the argument is that the guide should drop more restaurants if that’s the rationale they used for dropping Jiros.

My core point was aimed at the comments about lazy tourism and doing your own research, which is exactly what the Guide is there to do.

I don’t agree with every rating the guide has made, but I don’t have the time, contacts and knowledge to form my own opinion in every location I visit.

Bohemian1 Nov 29, 2019 8:37 am


Originally Posted by Kgmm77 (Post 31787605)
My core point was aimed at the comments about lazy tourism and doing your own research, which is exactly what the Guide is there to do.

I don’t agree with every rating the guide has made, but I don’t have the time, contacts and knowledge to form my own opinion in every location I visit.

Exactly.

The same reason I look at the Michelin guide, check out OAD and, of course, search for recommendations from the excellent contributors to this very thread.

I agree that there is always the Chef's Table, Instagram or FOMO effect that can destroy the very appeal of some the smaller, off the beaten track places. But as long as these establishments are getting bums in seats and prospering, then who am I to begrudge that?

And last I checked, Jiro was the subject of a pretty widely seen documentary which kinda let the cat out of the bag, so to speak.

gengar Nov 29, 2019 1:15 pm


Originally Posted by Kgmm77 (Post 31787605)
My core point was aimed at the comments about lazy tourism and doing your own research, which is exactly what the Guide is there to do.

And it's precisely what some of these restaurants are seeking to avoid by closing public reservations. The purpose of the Michelin Guide supports this phenomenon so clearly there is no disagreement on that point, even if it (apparently) strikes a nerve.



Originally Posted by Bohemian1 (Post 31787663)
But as long as these establishments are getting bums in seats and prospering, then who am I to begrudge that?

What's interesting is that I've recently seen more and more of these traditionally "invite-only" restaurants show up on direct booking websites. I wonder if this is in response to the threat of getting Michelin stars pulled, in which case it's incredibly weaselly if these spots want to show off Michelin stars but don't want hordes of foreigners showing up either.

The other issue with Michelin Guide (and another reason it's just full of crap) is where do they draw the line on this? I mean, seriously - if a restaurant accepts one single seat per year from the public, does that qualify them for Michelin? I believe in 2017, Jiro auctioned off seats in partnership with a western-oriented booking website - does that count? Or what if they show up on a public booking website, even if they don't actually take a single public reservation?

It'll be interesting to see how they handle this in other countries, too. Sushi Amamoto in Taipei (run by the brother of the proprietor of the Higashi-Azabu restaurant), for example, doesn't even have a web presence anymore, much less accepts reservations.

Kgmm77 Nov 29, 2019 1:33 pm


Originally Posted by gengar (Post 31788364)
And it's precisely what some of these restaurants are seeking to avoid by closing public reservations. The purpose of the Michelin Guide supports this phenomenon.

I’m not sure something that is 120 years old qualifies as a phenomenon.

But I take the point that it is within the gift of the restaurant to choose how it attracts its customers, and likewise the decision of guides to reflect this in whether or not they list the restaurant. A more interesting point is the reticence and avoidance of foreign business. I can understand it on one level, they don’t need the money or the hassle of dealing with strangers. But if you tried it in other countries if could be construed as skirting close to racism.

gengar Nov 29, 2019 2:02 pm


Originally Posted by Kgmm77 (Post 31788404)
I’m not sure something that is 120 years old qualifies as a phenomenon.

By "phenomenon" I was referring to the restaurant practice of refusing public reservations.



Originally Posted by Kgmm77 (Post 31788404)
But I take the point that it is within the gift of the restaurant to choose how it attracts its customers, and likewise the decision of guides to reflect this in whether or not they list the restaurant. A more interesting point is the reticence and avoidance of foreign business. I can understand it on one level, they don’t need the money or the hassle of dealing with strangers. But if you tried it in other countries if could be construed as skirting close to racism.

Absolutely so and the level of xenophobia in such an otherwise developed country is staggering. I still remember making a reservation at Hyotei and literally the very first question they asked was what the nationality of the guests was. I told them not to bother.

sophialite Nov 29, 2019 2:59 pm

Pretty excited for the next few weeks—
Chefs Table at Brooklyn Fare - First time going. Partner and I by tradition do EMP every year but since it’ll be our fifth time in NYC this year there’s no point.

Gramercy Tavern - we’ve done this quite a few times but it fell off the list after 2014 for no particular reason. Ate there back again in July and regretted not eating there 5 years in between. Going again in a few weeks.

Arpege - one of our close friends is joining us. He’s vegan and so I thought it would be a cool New Years gift.

next year I’m aiming to do Tickets again, as well El Cellar again. Will try Mirazur for the first time.

did Osteria Francescana, Bo Lan, and Gaggan over the summer. OF was excellent but not amazing enough for me to try to go again. Bo Lan sucked and I regretted wasting time on that place.

Gaggan will always confuse me, but is up there with my favorite experiences. Would go again if I didn’t have to fly all the way to BKK for it.

sophialite Nov 29, 2019 3:02 pm

As an aside I’m looking for a top sushi place in NYC and am having trouble deciding, so would love recommendations.

Azabu — my old haunt back in 2009-2011. I hear it’s fallen off quite a bit.

Yasuda — reliably good but want to go somewhere new and less corporate. Every time I eat there in the summer I feel like I’m surrounded by big law summer associates.

Nakazawa —excellent the first time I ate there. Meh the second time.

any other places I should look at?

gengar Nov 29, 2019 3:18 pm


Originally Posted by sophialite (Post 31788583)
any other places I should look at?

I still find myself at Yasuda at least once every time I go to NYC, it's just that consistent. Ginza Onodera and Sushi Amane are my other regular spots. Sushi Noz if you like warm rice.

EDIT: Sushi Amane was not nearly as good on my last two visits in early 2020, so I striked it out.

HKTraveler Dec 1, 2019 7:39 am


Originally Posted by DeathSlam (Post 31785649)
I agree they won't be bothered by the loss of stars. In fact they probably welcome it as it stops wealthy but culturally and culinary naive foreigners showing up. I wonder if Amex would be able to make bookings? Probably not by the sound of that article.

Credit care concierge aren’t that helpful especially for the really to tough to book restaurants


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