Wine tasting - Junk science?
Oct 16, 2013 | 7:24 am
#1
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Wine tasting - Junk science?
interesting article in the Guardian on the subject:
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandst...ience-analysis
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandst...ience-analysis
Every year Robert Hodgson selects the finest wines from his small California winery and puts them into competitions around the state.
And in most years, the results are surprisingly inconsistent: some whites rated as gold medallists in one contest do badly in another. Reds adored by some panels are dismissed by others. Over the decades Hodgson, a softly spoken retired oceanographer, became curious. Judging wines is by its nature subjective, but the awards appeared to be handed out at random.
So drawing on his background in statistics, Hodgson approached the organisers of the California State Fair wine competition, the oldest contest of its kind in North America, and proposed an experiment for their annual June tasting sessions.
Each panel of four judges would be presented with their usual "flight" of samples to sniff, sip and slurp. But some wines would be presented to the panel three times, poured from the same bottle each time. The results would be compiled and analysed to see whether wine testing really is scientific.
The first experiment took place in 2005. The last was in Sacramento earlier this month. Hodgson's findings have stunned the wine industry. Over the years he has shown again and again that even trained, professional palates are terrible at judging wine.
And in most years, the results are surprisingly inconsistent: some whites rated as gold medallists in one contest do badly in another. Reds adored by some panels are dismissed by others. Over the decades Hodgson, a softly spoken retired oceanographer, became curious. Judging wines is by its nature subjective, but the awards appeared to be handed out at random.
So drawing on his background in statistics, Hodgson approached the organisers of the California State Fair wine competition, the oldest contest of its kind in North America, and proposed an experiment for their annual June tasting sessions.
Each panel of four judges would be presented with their usual "flight" of samples to sniff, sip and slurp. But some wines would be presented to the panel three times, poured from the same bottle each time. The results would be compiled and analysed to see whether wine testing really is scientific.
The first experiment took place in 2005. The last was in Sacramento earlier this month. Hodgson's findings have stunned the wine industry. Over the years he has shown again and again that even trained, professional palates are terrible at judging wine.
Oct 16, 2013 | 8:58 am
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I don't know how wine tasting can be described as a science, whether true, faux or junk. Certainly there may be wines that are off - and thus empirically bad - but otherwise it's a matter of taste and no more.
California wine marketeers have become masters of tweaking recipes so that their products appeal to as broad a market as possible (as long as you have a sweet tooth), and there may well be science in how to do that. But it doesn't make the wine better or worse than any other.
California wine marketeers have become masters of tweaking recipes so that their products appeal to as broad a market as possible (as long as you have a sweet tooth), and there may well be science in how to do that. But it doesn't make the wine better or worse than any other.
Oct 16, 2013 | 9:03 am
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Would have been interesting to learn if the tasters' judgements became less consistent at a particular point. I cannot see how someone required to judge 200 examples of anything could not succumb to decision fatigue:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-...b_4044212.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-...b_4044212.html
Oct 16, 2013 | 9:21 am
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There's also the fact that no two bottles of the same wine ever seem to taste exactly the same. I don't know how many times I will be bowled over by a bottle, go back and buy a lot more, then think, meh as soon as try it a second time.
Oct 16, 2013 | 6:16 pm
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Would have been interesting to learn if the tasters' judgements became less consistent at a particular point. I cannot see how someone required to judge 200 examples of anything could not succumb to decision fatigue:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-...b_4044212.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-...b_4044212.html
Perhaps the moral is you like the wines you like and the wines you don't, and the awards and the experts aren't that valuable...
Oct 16, 2013 | 7:22 pm
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People that think Wine Tasting is random should do a search for WSET and the Systematic Approach to Tasting. It creates a standard which qualified tasting experts a can compare any wine and maintain benchmarks.
Taste Fatigue and Decision Fatigue happen without a doubt but there is a very clear benchmark and tasting methodology practiced by most professionals.
Taste Fatigue and Decision Fatigue happen without a doubt but there is a very clear benchmark and tasting methodology practiced by most professionals.
Oct 16, 2013 | 7:28 pm
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but then given test results such as these:
it does become very hard to support any standards - if people can taste different things in the same wine based upon a simple colour change...
What happened to the methodology of those experts, that they couldn't tell they had tasted the same wine twice?
Colour affects our perceptions too. In 2001 Frdrick Brochet of the University of Bordeaux asked 54 wine experts to test two glasses of wine – one red, one white. Using the typical language of tasters, the panel described the red as "jammy' and commented on its crushed red fruit.
The critics failed to spot that both wines were from the same bottle. The only difference was that one had been coloured red with a flavourless dye.
The critics failed to spot that both wines were from the same bottle. The only difference was that one had been coloured red with a flavourless dye.
What happened to the methodology of those experts, that they couldn't tell they had tasted the same wine twice?
Oct 16, 2013 | 7:34 pm
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but then given test results such as these:
it does become very hard to support any standards - if people can taste different things in the same wine based upon a simple colour change...
What happened to the methodology of those experts, that they couldn't tell they had tasted the same wine twice?
it does become very hard to support any standards - if people can taste different things in the same wine based upon a simple colour change...
What happened to the methodology of those experts, that they couldn't tell they had tasted the same wine twice?
Oct 16, 2013 | 8:30 pm
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California wine marketeers have become masters of tweaking recipes so that their products appeal to as broad a market as possible (as long as you have a sweet tooth), and there may well be science in how to do that. But it doesn't make the wine better or worse than any other.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-201...-sec24-246.xml
People that think Wine Tasting is random should do a search for WSET and the Systematic Approach to Tasting. It creates a standard which qualified tasting experts a can compare any wine and maintain benchmarks.
Taste Fatigue and Decision Fatigue happen without a doubt but there is a very clear benchmark and tasting methodology practiced by most professionals.
Taste Fatigue and Decision Fatigue happen without a doubt but there is a very clear benchmark and tasting methodology practiced by most professionals.
Last edited by cblaisd; Oct 16, 2013 at 11:24 pm Reason: Merged poster's two consecutive posts
Oct 16, 2013 | 8:36 pm
#11
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A wine can be described as good quality when but shows balance between acidity and fruit. This is determined in the aromas, on the palate and in the finish. A win may however be said to be of good quality merely by its adherence to typicity.
Much more to it than just individual preferences. Although those impact buying habits so naturally impact styles produced.
Well yes and no. A wine produced to be oxidized before bottling will change far less over time after opening. So absolute control of the changes caused by the interaction of components in the wine with components of the environment no, but a very controlled change at a defined pace to quite reasonably expected new state yes.
Much more to it than just individual preferences. Although those impact buying habits so naturally impact styles produced.
Well yes and no. A wine produced to be oxidized before bottling will change far less over time after opening. So absolute control of the changes caused by the interaction of components in the wine with components of the environment no, but a very controlled change at a defined pace to quite reasonably expected new state yes.
Last edited by cblaisd; Oct 16, 2013 at 11:25 pm Reason: Merged poster's two consecutive posts
Oct 16, 2013 | 9:31 pm
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Well yes and no. A wine produced to be oxidized before bottling will change far less over time after opening. So absolute control of the changes caused by the interaction of components in the wine with components of the environment no, but a very controlled change at a defined pace to quite reasonably expected new state yes.
Oct 16, 2013 | 10:04 pm
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I have no expertise at all in what I'm saying, and what I'm about to say could actually be blowing out a nether orifice, but don't most "wine competition" wines tend to be quite young (relatively speaking) where the tannin structure changes significantly over time once exposed to air? This effect would not affect most of your cellar
Tannins soften over time in the bottle. Many New World producers are picking later and later so as to get softer tannins right at release rather than waiting. Many f the very expensive and popular Bordeaux wines are laid done for so long because hey were not picker late in the season and need much bottle age to really get the tannins to soften and the vegetal characteristics to diminish.
The big changes to a wine when exposed to air are the fruit flavors and aromas. The newly introduced presence of oxygen in the wine will also cause a variety of other changes but i general the mingling of air and wine is first noticed in the aromas then the palate.
My cellar is a bit of a baby unfortunately. Most of it is not even 20 years old.
Oct 16, 2013 | 11:15 pm
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Back to a travel twist... But still on the subject of wine. I went to a wine-tasting dinner a (longish) while ago at the invitation of CX, and two of their three sommeliers were presenting. Usual blah about altitude, dry air, blah blah blah. The most interesting comment was from the older of the two sommeliers who said a basic rule to make wine taste better is to have a really big glass. Ironic, since CX had just downsized their wine glasses (again!). Mind you, I am chuffed that CX now use Riedel-style wine tumblers in J now - they are excellent...
Oct 16, 2013 | 11:24 pm
#15
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I would say this is not at all fact but instead only anecdotal as the only real difference from bottle to bottle you should taste if age and setting (comment about glasses is right on the money) is when a particular bottle is bad. Terroir and the discerning of its characteristics relies heavily on similarity.