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-   -   I hate tipping, how can we end it? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/diningbuzz/1025173-i-hate-tipping-how-can-we-end.html)

deubster Jan 5, 2010 7:26 am

Random observations about tipping:

1) I used to occasionally resent tipping when I didn't mentally prepare for it ahead of time. If you budget for it in advance, you aren't bothered by the extras that tips, taxes, parking fees, etc. will add to the cost of things. Kind of like the extra 10 minutes it will take to reach your destination if you drive the speed limit - no big deal if you adjust your schedule and leave early instead of drive like a bat out of he!! keeping your eyes peeled for cops.

In other words, if you recognize ahead of time that your $25 steak meal will be $32 or $34 after tax and tip, you won't get bent out of shape at the notion of tipping.

2) My first wife & I both worked in graduate school. I worked nights stocking shelves in a Safeway, a union job that paid over $7/hr in a small, rural town in the early 70's - pretty good wages back then. My wife averaged $25 - $30 an hour serving steaks in the only upscale restaurant in town. Even with her masters, I'm not sure she's made as much since.

3) You can argue all you want, but IMHO, the relationship between quality of service and tipping is spurious, at best. I've received excellent service in European and Asian restaurants where tipping was not involved. In my home town we have a grocery chain where every employee is extremely friendly and goes out of their way to be helpful - no tipping allowed, and they don't earn that much either. Mostly they hire the right people and train them properly.

4) I'm not much swayed by sympathy for the plight of the waiter/waitress. Some earn plenty, some not much at all. Those who make not much at all are aware that there is a hierarchy of jobs and dining establishments, and if they wish to improve their circumstances, they will attempt to move up within the hierarchy. The girl on roller skates at the Sonic is probably a student taking the best available job that fits her class schedule, with a constant eye out for better opportunities. Shucks, she probably makes as much (or more) as the part-time teller at the bank drive-through, also a student.

In essence, I tip because it is the custom in this neck of the woods, and I don't get bent out of shape about it because I've already accounted for it in planning my dining choices. If I get bad service, I make my displeasure known not by shorting the tip (who knows how they split tips in this restaurant?), but by letting the management know about the problems - this benefits the restaurant, and in the long run, me.

sylvia hennesy Jan 5, 2010 8:22 am

Here's my final take on the US situation:
If employees are LEGALLY paid LESS THAN MINIMUM wage, i.e., food/beverage servers, I tip 15% IF the service was adequate. NO more; those prices have increased consistently, so see no reason that my percentage should also.
If employees are paid the LEGAL MINIMUM wage or more, I do not tip. Why should the maid get tipped (I'm PAYING for clean sheets, and paying a lot), when the poor schmuck in the back of the dry cleaners, or anyone making that wage anywhere else, doesn't? No, I'm not cheap; the current whining of "but it's just a few bucks to you, it means a lot to them" or (this one I especially love) "if you can't afford to tip, don't go there" is self-righteous and annoying for the rest of us who have been dragged into this morass of endless tipping for services that we already pay for.

Cha-cha-cha Jan 5, 2010 10:27 am

I've basically given up -- I always (in the U.S. at least) just add 15% in restaurants no matter what the service is like, considering it part of the price. There are other ways to deal with good or bad service: talking to the server, talking to the manager, or recommending or disrecommending the establishment orally to acquaintances or on the internet, and most of all, going back or not going back.

I wonder how many other people do the same. What this decision does is basically just assimilate the tip into the price of the meal, which probably is a better reflection of the economic reality than fiddling around with trying to adjust a few dollars and cents to reflect your exact level of satisfaction.

Speaking of economics, I wonder if there's been any serious study of the economics of tipping. From a classical economics standpoint, the practice seems to me irrational and inefficient, types of behavior which aren't supposed to happen in a free market, which is what tipping basically is: economically, a tip is a sort of after-the-fact "bid" in what amounts to an auction for services. But the auction isn't a very efficient one.

sylvia hennesy Jan 5, 2010 12:10 pm

A bid for services, or a bribe? Of course, an after-the-fact bribe does the briber no good; maybe we should call it blackmail (by the employer to have us pay their worker costs)? It really doesn't make sense, economically.

jjwjjw Jan 5, 2010 9:49 pm

I've basically given up too. I usually just do the standard 15%, but have been known to leave a couple pennies on the table for the absolute worst service I ever got and upwards of 20% for excellent service. It still does bug me that they are getting bribed to do their job properly.

new2japan Jan 7, 2010 2:48 pm


Originally Posted by sylvia hennesy (Post 13115925)
No, I'm not cheap; the current whining of "but it's just a few bucks to you, it means a lot to them" or (this one I especially love) "if you can't afford to tip, don't go there" is self-righteous and annoying for the rest of us who have been dragged into this morass of endless tipping for services that we already pay for.

I'd complain to your government then. When you don't tip, at all (I'm not sure how you would know their wage) you actually cost the server money. The government assumes that 8% of the check is income to the server. You are taking money out of their pocket. I'm not sure how many people who hate tipping complain to the IRS or their elected representatives, but I imagine it is in the neighborhood of 0.

You can say you are not cheap, but if what you are saying were to happen, you'd basically be in the situation like in Australia where wait staff get paid a large hourly wage and the prices reflect that. Basically, were everyone to do what you do, the level of service would go down, your control over it would be not much and things would cost the same as what you paid in tip would still be there...it would just mean a higher price for the meal.

Cha-cha-cha Jan 7, 2010 4:16 pm

Free idea for any restaurant that wants to try it:

Announce in writing on each check that tips are not accepted, but customers are asked to mark the service on a scale:
  1. Terrible
  2. Adequate
  3. Acceptable
  4. Superior
  5. Excellent

Each server would receive a bonus from management equal to 5% of the bill (before tax) for a 2 rating, 10% for a 3, 15% for a 4, and 20% for a five.

No doubt there would be some things to work out -- are bar drinks tipped separately? how do you prevent cheating? what if customers in a party disagree? how do you count customers who neglect to fill it out? -- but the basic idea may still be sound.

Some might ask how this would be different from the current system. I can see several ways: it would make taxation of the tips easier and more honest, it would prevent the need to calculate tips, and it would bring about a systematization of the tipping standards, making it more predictable and promoting a common understanding of what the tip means. It would also make it much easier for both management and staff to rate the service "score" of each server.

PFKMan23 Jan 7, 2010 6:51 pm


Originally Posted by Cha-cha-cha (Post 13135479)
Free idea for any restaurant that wants to try it:

Announce in writing on each check that tips are not accepted, but customers are asked to mark the service on a scale:
  1. Terrible
  2. Adequate
  3. Acceptable
  4. Superior
  5. Excellent

Each server would receive a bonus from management equal to 5% of the bill (before tax) for a 2 rating, 10% for a 3, 15% for a 4, and 20% for a five.

No doubt there would be some things to work out -- are bar drinks tipped separately? how do you prevent cheating? what if customers in a party disagree? how do you count customers who neglect to fill it out? -- but the basic idea may still be sound.

Some might ask how this would be different from the current system. I can see several ways: it would make taxation of the tips easier and more honest, it would prevent the need to calculate tips, and it would bring about a systematization of the tipping standards, making it more predictable and promoting a common understanding of what the tip means. It would also make it much easier for both management and staff to rate the service "score" of each server.


I'd go for that even though I realize that prices would be raised as countermeasure.

k_sheep Jan 8, 2010 1:55 am

I think you should concentrate on the more important issue at hand - when is north america FINALLY going to adopt the metric system?

seanthepilot Jan 9, 2010 1:46 am


Originally Posted by k_sheep (Post 13137879)
I think you should concentrate on the more important issue at hand - when is north america FINALLY going to adopt the metric system?


Well, the larger half of North America switched to the metric system in the 1970's:
1975 Celsius
1976 Weather
1977 Road signs
1979 Gasoline pumps

But how does that relate to tipping :D

k_sheep Jan 19, 2010 8:29 pm


Originally Posted by seanthepilot (Post 13144972)
Well, the larger half of North America switched to the metric system in the 1970's:
1975 Celsius
1976 Weather
1977 Road signs
1979 Gasoline pumps

But how does that relate to tipping :D

Just another important thing for the US to change :)

mlh1 Jan 19, 2010 9:53 pm

This post is pretty funny really.

I give a free pass to those living outside the US.

Those in the US that are complaining about tipping: go buy and prepare your own food, or purchase your liquor and bring it home. Servers are paid well below minimum wage, and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

Apparently you were all above ever waiting tables in college or to make ends meet. I managed a restaurant and waited table 40 hours a week while completing two degrees. I have minimal amounts of student loans after graduating to show for it. Although my Father is a VP of a fortune 500 company, he does not believe people should be handed everything in life, you have to work for it, so I did. I know I am much better off than those who were given Daddy's credit card, and ended up barely graduating. That being said, most servers are not intending to be servers for the remainder of their lives, and most are quite intelligent. They can spot you from a mile away, and will treat you as such, beware Mr. Cheapa$$.

rjque Jan 19, 2010 10:00 pm


Originally Posted by mlh1 (Post 13215511)
This post is pretty funny really.

I give a free pass to those living outside the US.

Those in the US that are complaining about tipping: go buy and prepare your own food, or purchase your liquor and bring it home. Servers are paid well below minimum wage, and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

Apparently you were all above ever waiting tables in college or to make ends meet. I managed a restaurant and waited table 40 hours a week while completing two degrees. I have minimal amounts of student loans after graduating to show for it. Although my Father is a VP of a fortune 500 company, he does not believe people should be handed everything in life, you have to work for it, so I did. I know I am much better off than those who were given Daddy's credit card, and ended up barely graduating. That being said, most servers are not intending to be servers for the remainder of their lives, and most are quite intelligent. They can spot you from a mile away, and will treat you as such, beware Mr. Cheapa$$.

No need to give a free pass to anyone living outside the US. "We don't do it that way where I'm from" has never been a good reason to be rude in a foreign country.

Eastbay1K Jan 19, 2010 10:22 pm


Originally Posted by seanthepilot (Post 13144972)
Well, the larger half of North America switched to the metric system in the 1970's:
1975 Celsius
1976 Weather
1977 Road signs
1979 Gasoline pumps

But how does that relate to tipping :D

If it is larger, it isn't half :p.

Eastbay1K Jan 19, 2010 10:31 pm


Originally Posted by sylvia hennesy (Post 13115925)
Here's my final take on the US situation:
If employees are LEGALLY paid LESS THAN MINIMUM wage, i.e., food/beverage servers, I tip 15% IF the service was adequate. NO more; those prices have increased consistently, so see no reason that my percentage should also.
If employees are paid the LEGAL MINIMUM wage or more, I do not tip.

All legal employees in California are paid at least minimum wage. That, plus the tips, usually results in a subsistence wage. (I'm not talking about professional servers at top places.) I would respectfully request that if one has this perspective, that one not dine out in California.

What do you do when there's an employee making "LEGAL MINIMUM" wage, or forbid, more, and you have excellent service and a great meal? Stiff him/her? ^ Great post!


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